Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[GlennB]

I am quoting Helsingin Sanomat, Kari Lehtola, Lt. Commander Mikko Montonen and the guys on the Turma who tested one of them. They all said they were fully charged batterywise but untuned and not switched on.

Here is a translation of the article here:

HS 28.1.1995 google translate

The original Finnish version is here, if anyone wants to compare the language

In which, it is crystal clear, the word 'tuned' refers to switching them on. Why are you doing this?

 

[SpitfireIX]

See http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14159186#post14159186

First, you claimed the resolution "clearly states" that automatic activation is required, when it "clearly states" no such thing. You simply infer that an automatic activation requirement is implied. Second, your reference is to a recommendation (which is why it says "Recommendation" at the top ), and the part of the resolution in which it is referenced starts with the word "Recommends." Governments and regulatory bodies routinely decline to adopt safety recommendations if they are felt to be unduly burdensome or expensive to the regulated industry. I believe several other people have explained this to you already.

 

[Vixen]

The bow visor was recovered after the accident. The ramp has now been recovered. No evidence of explosives found. It's one thing when the evidence is sitting on the bottom of the ocean, people can make all kinds of wild claims. But now there is easy access to these pieces by a long line experts.

You are quoting outdated sources.

Wait! The bow ramp door (to the car deck) has only just been raised, in July this year. Give them a chance to look at it.

 

[JayUtah]

I am quoting Helsingin Sanomat, Kari Lehtola, Lt. Commander Mikko Montonen and the guys on the Turma who tested one of them. They all said they were fully charged batterywise but untuned and not switched on.

The correct translation of the Finnish word that you say means "tuned" is what's in question. I'm telling you as a matter of incontrovertible fact that you cannot adjust the transmission frequency of any emergency beacon in the field. Therefore one of the other possible translations would be more appropriate. We seem to be accumulating a list of things you naively believe emergency beacons can do, but which others' knowledge and experience say you cannot.

 

[Vixen]

Obviously untrue.

Why do you keep quoting secondary sources and then lying about it and pretending you're quoting primary sources? It's profoundly dishonest.

You know you're doing it. We know you're doing it. It taints everything you claim to know about the Estonia case. Nothing you say about this case can be taken at face value.

Who do you claim to be the source of these slides with NTNU clearly marked on them?

http://fokusestonia.se/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Pressekonferanse-1.pdf

Are you claiming slides are not primary sources? Wake up, accept a fact as a fact. This is what Professor Ida Westermann presented. Don't try to claim she did not. If you dispute it, let's see your scientific facts against and your sources.

 

[JayUtah]

Who do you claim to be the source of these slides with NTNU clearly marked on them?

http://fokusestonia.se/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Pressekonferanse-1.pdf

Are you claiming slides are not primary sources? Wake up, accept a fact as a fact. This is what Professor Ida Westermann presented. Don't try to claim she did not. If you dispute it, let's see your scientific facts against and your sources.

Equivocation.

You initially quoted from a right-wing tabloid that misrepresented Westermann's conclusions and omitted others that contracted the sabotage narrative. When caught, you silently switched to a new source that more accurately reproduces the slides from her presentation, but doesn't include or support the erroneous conclusions drawn by your tabloid source that you demand we answer.

I prepared a thorough answer to your claims regarding Westermann's findings previously. I've asked you several times now to summarize it for the group. Your unwillingness to do so indicates you don't really want a reasoned discussion of her findings.

 

[SpitfireIX]

They knew it was doomed, engineers tend to realise a ship is doomed when the water stops the machinery and is filling the machinery spaces.
As soon as the power is gone all you can do is abandon ship.

As I have pointed out, and Vixen has either ignored or twisted, most of the engine room gang on the Empress of Ireland survived, while most of the passengers died.

 

[Vixen]

First, you claimed the resolution "clearly states" that automatic activation is required, when it "clearly states" no such thing. You simply infer that an automatic activation requirement is implied. Second, your reference is to a recommendation (which is why it says "Recommendation" at the top ), and the part of the resolution in which it is referenced starts with the word "Recommends." Governments and regulatory bodies routinely decline to adopt safety recommendations if they are felt to be unduly burdensome or expensive to the regulated industry. I believe several other people have explained this to you already.

The recommendation is of a float-free automatic type. First the Herald of Free Enterprise Inquiry 1987, next the gdmss conference 1988, next their recommendations, presumably voted on and passed. Next passes into SOLAS requirements. Commercial marine enterprises were given ample time to comply, 'by Aug 1993'. That is how lawmaking works. Laws start as a recommendation or a white paper. In other words it is completely untrue that it didn't happen until after 1997 as claimed by a couple of detractors.

 

[Vixen]

The correct translation of the Finnish word that you say means "tuned" is what's in question. I'm telling you as a matter of incontrovertible fact that you cannot adjust the transmission frequency of any emergency beacon in the field. Therefore one of the other possible translations would be more appropriate. We seem to be accumulating a list of things you naively believe emergency beacons can do, but which others' knowledge and experience say you cannot.

I have confirmed it is the correct translation and I have provided google translate as verification.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Are you claiming slides are not primary sources?

Obviously not, so long as they are the unaltered originals and have not been selectively presented to change their meaning.

When you quote what someone else claims your primary source said, or gives their interpretation of what they think they meant, that is not quoting a primary source. This is not difficult.

 

[Vixen]

Equivocation.

You initially quoted from a right-wing tabloid that misrepresented Westermann's conclusions and omitted others that contracted the sabotage narrative. When caught, you silently switched to a new source that more accurately reproduces the slides from her presentation, but doesn't include or support the erroneous conclusions drawn by your tabloid source that you demand we answer.

I prepared a thorough answer to your claims regarding Westermann's findings previously. I've asked you several times now to summarize it for the group. Your unwillingness to do so indicates you don't really want a reasoned discussion of her findings.

Stop putting words into my mouth and claiming to be able to second guess me. If something is a fact or a matter of news, it matters not a jot what newspaper reports it. For example, the earthquake in Morocco is also reported in 'right wing' press; doesn't make it any less a current news item.

 

[JayUtah]

I have confirmed it is the correct translation...

By what means did you confirm it? How did that confirmation account for the known facts pertaining to the device in question?

...and I have provided google translate as verification.

How would Google Translate know anything about whether it's possible to adjust the frequency of an emergency beacon in the field?

 

[Vixen]

Obviously not, so long as they are the unaltered originals and have not been selectively presented to change their meaning.

When you quote what someone else claims your primary source said, or gives their interpretation of what they think they meant, that is not quoting a primary source. This is not difficult.

Those were the slides Professor Westermann used at her press conference. You can find the press conference in youtube probably and judge for yourself if they are the same slides.

 

[Disbelief]

I have confirmed it is the correct translation and I have provided google translate as verification.

Yet using a different translator, I came up with something different.

The two emergency buoys on the car ferry Estonian did not send a signal to the rescuers because they were not tuned on board. The emergency buoys properly bubbled to the surface when the ship sank.
The International Commission of Inquiry into the accident has been investigating the operation of the buoys that washed up on the Estonian coast. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not have sent anything without being armed," says Kari Lehtola, a member of the Commission.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Big difference in your translation that says untuned but this version says armed.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I have confirmed it is the correct translation and I have provided google translate as verification.

So you're claiming your translation is sufficiently unambiguous that your sources must be technically incompetent? Odd take, but you do you.

 

[Vixen]

As I have pointed out, and Vixen has either ignored or twisted, most of the engine room gang on the Empress of Ireland survived, while most of the passengers died.

Thank you for reinforcing the argument that the so-called 'missing Estonian crew' almost certainly did indeed survive, or at least some of them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Those were the slides Professor Westermann used at her press conference. You can find the press conference in youtube probably and judge for yourself if they are the same slides.

Deflection. The slides were not the point of contention.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh hey Vixen, you're back.

Care to admit to the errors you made in those two posts where I did the legwork and found the posts in question?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen, do you think that you can change the frequency of an emergency beacon?

 

[zooterkin]

Thank you for reinforcing the argument that the so-called 'missing Estonian crew' almost certainly did indeed survive, or at least some of them.

What are you wittering about this time? We know the engineers on the Estonia survived.