Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Jack by the hedge]

Their names appeared on the initial survivors list and as faxed to Estonian government officials.

Citation for this list?

Show us the list. Who compiled it? When? Where were these supposed survivors seen and by whom?

 

[JayUtah]

Look at the outrage in my pointing out a simple fact about the Estonia EPIRB's.

The outrage results from your wanton lies about them, not from resistance to some incontrovertible fact.

You weren't sure whether the EPIRB transmission frequency could be adjusted in the field, whereas this would be crystal clear to anyone who actually has any knowledge of and familiarity with emergency locator beacons. You didn't know that. Imagine what else you might not know about emergency beacons.

 

[Vixen]

I'm curious why you chose this particular media outlet as your choice of filter for Westermann's presentation. Are they a reputable source? What did you do to determine that the claims you copied from them are an accurate representation of Westermann's findings?

Yes, it's a reliable source, the source being Professor Ida Westermann herself.

You can see the slides she used in her presentation here.

http://fokusestonia.se/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Pressekonferanse-1.pdf

Let us know if you think she is not reputable.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Piht, who was in the cabin next to the Voronins, and may even have shared it, was last seen in Helsinki.

No, he wasn't. Someone else in Helsinki was misidentified as Piht by someone watching the news report on German TV. That TV footage is still on YouTube and has been linked in the thread before. It's a great big nothing.

If he had been among the rescued in Helsinki, he could not have been abducted on your fantasy helicopter flight directly to Sweden.

Choose one fantasy and stick to it please.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, it's a reliable source, the source being Professor Ida Westermann herself.

That wasn't your source. You quoted a right-wing, low-reliability news source that paraphrased her findings and conclusions and left out the part where she said her findings did not support the hypothesis that explosives were used. I suspect you realized this too late and have switched to a different source that reproduces her presentation slide deck but doesn't include the conclusions your right-wing tabloid tacked on.

Let us know if you think she is not reputable.

Why don't you remind the forum what I said about her findings the last time you brought this up. Surely you remember and can summarize for the group.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That is incorrect. Professor Ida Westermann, Head of Metallurgy at a Norwegian University found indisutable evidence that the deformation she observed in her testing of a section of the bow visor could not have been caused by the 'pressure of pounding waves' or 'the striking of the bow visor against the car ramp.'

Welding. Next.

Likewise British Naval explosives expert, Robin Braidwood did recognise a British hexacomposite explosive device, which had not gone off, when he saw it on a video.

Garbage. You have massively and dishonestly embellished what he said. You are truly the most unreliable witness in history.

 

[Axxman300]

Nothing to do with fantasy. Hard-headed realism. Nobody around these parts believes the JAIC report.

I hear banjo music now.

 

[Vixen]

"Prime" may be a better translation. I don't know squat about Finnish, but in English, as a verb the word means to "make ready." In Finnish it might mean they tested the device to ensure its On/Off switch was working.



For cordless phones, I had a model one time that would let me switch frequencies at the press of a button. However (I've come into this conversation rather late) I suspect that was not the case with this device, and reading the service manual will confirm or refute my suspicion.



From everyone else's comments on this topic, it appears only the case itself was HRU triggered, but that does not necessarily mean the device inside was auto-activated. It would still be an "HRU triggered case" if they had put a sealed empty bottle inside. Sure, the bottle would likely make the surface, but it would be just as useless as a manually activated EPIRB that wasn't turned on. Which certainly appears to be the case with the Estonia.

No, virittää is very much to do with tuning in the same sense as the English word. It derives from the noun virta which means 'wave' in a similar sense to English, both for sound waves and water flow or currents (both water, electricity and sound).

English to Finnish
To tune a radio - Radion virittämiseen
to switch on a radio - kytkeäksesi radion päälle
to turn the radio on - laita radio päälle
(This also applies to switching on the light)
to make ready - valmistamaan
to prime - pohjustamaan

Thus, virittä as used by the Finnish version of the JAIC panel very much has a sense of tuning and also tuning pertaining to waves or wavelengths.

It was a free-floating HRU-triggered automatic EPIRB in compliance with the GDMSS regulations.

 

[JayUtah]

Thus, virittä as used by the Finnish version of the JAIC panel very much has a sense of tuning and also tuning pertaining to waves or wavelengths.

No. You cannot adjust the transmission frequency of an EPIRB in the field, full stop. You are simply wrong.

 

[Axxman300]

That is incorrect. Professor Ida Westermann, Head of Metallurgy at a Norwegian University found indisutable evidence that the deformation she observed in her testing of a section of the bow visor could not have been caused by the 'pressure of pounding waves' or 'the striking of the bow visor against the car ramp.'

Likewise British Naval explosives expert, Robin Braidwood did recognise a British hexacomposite explosive device, which had not gone off, when he saw it on a video.

Call them liars all you want but at least they have provided considered documentary evidence. Your claim, "No signs or evidence of explosives were found" is unsubstantiated.

The bow visor was recovered after the accident. The ramp has now been recovered. No evidence of explosives found. It's one thing when the evidence is sitting on the bottom of the ocean, people can make all kinds of wild claims. But now there is easy access to these pieces by a long line experts.

You are quoting outdated sources.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, it's a reliable source, the source being Professor Ida Westermann herself.

Obviously untrue.

Why do you keep quoting secondary sources and then lying about it and pretending you're quoting primary sources? It's profoundly dishonest.

You know you're doing it. We know you're doing it. It taints everything you claim to know about the Estonia case. Nothing you say about this case can be taken at face value.

 

[Vixen]

Oh, yeah, sure. And from whom did your 'witnesses' reqire 'protection'?

When it's confirmed again that the sinking was just a stupid accident, these protected witnesses of your fantasy alternative reality will be wondering why they've been hiding away, cut off from their families and friends, for nearly 30 years. Don't you think so?

The public can be unkind to perceived persons in charge of tragic accidents.

Do you think it was kind to not let their families know whether or not they are on the ship? Identify the bodies, which at least is being done for the 9/11 victims' families. (Too late now for the Estonia, of course.)

 

[Vixen]

How sure of that are you? Strange that you can't seem to recall the answer we gave the last time you brought this up. Did you check your source like I asked? Did you verify that your source has accurately reproduced Prof. Westermann's findings? You have a poor research habit of quoting news sources instead of primary sources. This makes you the victim of their often-wrong interpretations.



Asked and answered. Braidwood saw a bundle he just assumed was an explosives satchel.



You're the one telling lies.

Professor Westermann's slides are her work. It is what she used in her press conference.

 

[JayUtah]

The public can be unkind to perceived persons in charge of tragic accidents.

So then you agree that amateurs shouldn't be poking around and blaming people for tragedies out of their own ignorance?

 

[JayUtah]

Professor Westermann's slides are her work. It is what she used in her press conference.

And I responded at length to the recording of her press conference the last time you brought this up. Be a good girl and summarize for the group what the substance of my response was.

Do you know what isn't Westermann's work? All the nonsense you initially quoted from a right-wing tabloid where conclusions were attributed to her that she didn't actually make.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Far better to let your loved ones think you are dead for thirty years than to risk facing the unkindness of the public. I mean you might find it hard to get a job on another ship if the public were angry at you personally even though there seems to be precious little evidence they are. And admittedly you might also find it hard to get such a job if you pretend to be dead, but I'm sure this idiocy makes some kind of sense to someone. Not to me, that's for sure.

 

[Disbelief]

No. You cannot adjust the transmission frequency of an EPIRB in the field, full stop. You are simply wrong.

She doesn't realize that tuning the frequency in the field would render them useless for their intended purpose.

 

[JayUtah]

She doesn't realize that tuning the frequency in the field would render them useless for their intended purpose.

She doesn’t realize that any attempt to tune them in the field by defeating the tamper-proof safeguards and thereby invalidating their certification would actually signal an emergency. The only way you can verify the tuning is to emit a signal and measure its frequency, bandwidth, and variance. Not only does this require a very sensitive spectrum analyzer, as soon as you tuned into 406.025 MHz, alarms go off in nearby ground stations.

But then we could fill a whole thread with the things Vixen doesn’t realize. And we have. Several, in fact.

 

[zooterkin]

Or they were put on a witness protection program.

For which there is zero evidence. Perhaps they're on the moon, there's just as much evidence for that.

 

[Vixen]

No. You cannot adjust the transmission frequency of an EPIRB in the field, full stop. You are simply wrong.

I am quoting Helsingin Sanomat, Kari Lehtola, Lt. Commander Mikko Montonen and the guys on the Turma who tested one of them. They all said they were fully charged batterywise but untuned and not switched on.

Here is a translation of the article here:

Estonia's emergency buoys had forgotten tuning
SUBSCRIBERS

Tukkimäki Paavo

28.1.1995 2:00

The two emergency buoys on board the ferry Estonia did not send a signal to the rescuers because they were not tuned on board. The emergency buoys popped to the surface appropriately as the ship sank.

The International Commission of Inquiry into Turma has investigated the operation of emergency buoys that drifted off the coast of Estonia. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not transmit anything untuned," says Commissioner Kari Lehtola.

The Commission concluded its two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki.
The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had recently been maintained and had been placed in place according to the rules. However, during the setup phase, we forgot to activate the buoys: the protective cover must be opened and the switch turned on.

The activation of the emergency buoy was part of the tasks of the Estonia radio telegraphists, of which there were two on board. The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio operator on the matter, said Commission expert member Asser Koivisto.

The purpose of the emergency buoy is to send the location of the sunken ship and tell searchers the name of the ship.

According to Koivisto's estimate, the mute nature of the buoys did not have a major impact on the rescue operations themselves, as the buoys only pop to the surface after the ship has sunk

HS 28.1.1995 google translate

The original Finnish version is here, if anyone wants to compare the language

Estonian hätäpoijuista oli unohtunut viritys
TILAAJILLE

Tukkimäki Paavo

28.1.1995 2:00

Autolautta Estonian kaksi hätäpoijua eivät lähettäneet signaalia pelastajille, koska niitä ei ollut viritetty laivalla. Hätäpoijut pulpahtivat pinnalle asianmukaisesti laivan upotessa.
Turman kansainvälinen tutkimuskomissio on selvittänyt Viron rannikolle ajautuneiden hätäpoijujen toimintaa. Poijujen akut olivat täydessä varauksessa, mutta ne eivät voineet lähettää mitään virittämättöminä, kertoo komission jäsen Kari Lehtola .
Komissio päätti kaksipäiväisen kokouksensa perjantaina Helsingissä.
Ns. EPIRB-hätäpoijut oli huollettu äskettäin, ja ne oli sijoitettu sääntöjen mukaisesti paikoilleen. Asetusvaiheessa unohtui kuitenkin poijujen aktivointi: suojakansi pitää avata ja kääntää kytkin päälle.
Hätäpoijun aktivointi kuului Estonialla radiosähköttäjien tehtäviin, joita laivalla oli kaksi. Tutkinta on vielä kesken, mutta komissio on kuullut radiosähköttäjää asiassa, kertoi komission asiantuntijajäsen Asser Koivisto .
Hätäpoijun tarkoitus on lähettää uponneen laivan sijainti sekä kertoa etsijöille laivan nimi.
Koiviston arvion mukaan poijujen mykkyydellä ei ollut suurta vaikutusta itse pelastustoimiin, sillä poijut pulpahtavat pintaan vasta laivan upottua