Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

Could you highlight the part that refers to the CIA? I'm having trouble seeing it.

There is a reason Sapo, KSI and MUST are called 'secret services'. Would you expect to see the minutes of MI5 and MI6 in Hansards?

As I said, Goran Persson put a fence around KSI and told Hirschfeld, Appeal Court Judge not to investigate beyond his remit.

Think hard, where do you imagine smuggled military equipment goes? It wasn't ordered by the government for the people. The customs guy who blew the whistle, said the order to let the equipment through unexamined at customs came from higher up than the government (i.e., MUST/KSI).

 

[MarkCorrigan]

There is a reason Sapo, KSI and MUST are called 'secret services'. Would you expect to see the minutes of MI5 and MI6 in Hansards?

But you claimed the evidence was in there.

You claimed that it was done at the behest of the CIA, someone asked you for evidence that it was done by the CIA and you supplied that link.

Again, we can all just go back and read it. You were asked for evidence of the CIA involvement and you provided that link. Now when challenged about where it says the CIA were involved you're claiming it isn't there because it's secret?

No Vixen. Not how it works.

 

[Vixen]

You made that up
There were no Times reporters on the front line chatting to German soldiers.
An 'Agent' then and now is not what you think it is or was
Here's a hint, Intelligence Officers pay Agents for information.
There were very few agents in Germany reporting to British Intelligence. Most that were in Germany were Russian assets. There was some contact with Germans through Intelligence Officers working through British Embassies in Switzerland and Spain.

You need to read up on some of the basics of WW2 Intelligence.
Max Hastings's 'The Secret War' is a good place to start. It's a good overview and had enough detail to be useful.
For the purposes of this discussion you can skip the sections on USA, Japan and British work in Africa, Japan and the Far East.

Actually I was extensively researching 1940 - 1942 in particular for a research project with a co-author. We went through every newspaper of the period, including the German ones (which were locked away in a special part of the British Museum Newspaper Library, [presumably to protect against vandals and souvenir hunters]). Our particular area of interest was the Swedish/Finnish aspect (yes, all of those newspapers were there, too). However, I became quite engrossed with many of the articles in the TIMES; incredibly detailed and well-written, great journalism in that paper once upon a time. I thought I had photocopied that particular article but either I didn't after all or it is mislaid.

I really couldn't give a toss whether some random person on the internet believes me or not. It is your prerogative. It is not anything that bothers me.

BTW I have never found a good history book on the subject. IMV the on the spot reporting of newspapers of the day as it was developing news is far more informative and imparts what people were really thinking at the time, instead of looking back and reinterpreting everything with a 60K word-limit set by the publishers.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

BTW I have never found a good history book on the subject. IMV the on the spot reporting of newspapers of the day as it was developing news is far more informative and imparts what people were really thinking at the time, instead of looking back and reinterpreting everything with a 60K word-limit set by the publishers.

This is why you're really bad at history and political analysis.

 

[Vixen]

But you claimed the evidence was in there.

You claimed that it was done at the behest of the CIA, someone asked you for evidence that it was done by the CIA and you supplied that link.

Again, we can all just go back and read it. You were asked for evidence of the CIA involvement and you provided that link. Now when challenged about where it says the CIA were involved you're claiming it isn't there because it's secret?

No Vixen. Not how it works.

I was referring to the smuggled ex-Soviet equipment being ferried on the Estonia passenger ship. No sensible person is going to expect to see details of secret services operations in public minutes.

 

[Vixen]

This is why you're really bad at history and political analysis.

At least I research issues and not just mindlessly handwave them away.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No, you were asked to provide the minutes that supported your claim. That there was Soviet equipment delivered on the Estonia under orders of the CIA.

See if you had just claimed that there was Soviet stuff on them fine, but that isn't evidence that the CIA were involved at all. Essentially you have taken a thing that happened (Soviet things transported on Estonia) and then extrapolated wildly that it was at the behest of the CIA with no evidence at all.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

At least I research issues and not just mindlessly handwave them away.

Point to where I've mindlessly handwaved anything away.

Also your "research" often relies on delusional cranks like Anders Bjorkman and very regularly gets even basic facts wrong.

 

[JayUtah]

It is very obvious that something fishy has gone on here.

So a conspiracy theory, then.

As usual, the yardstick you're using to measure "fishy" is "What Vixen thinks." You have a great track record for demonstrating that What Vixen Thinks is generally uninformed and arrogantly presumed.

It is quite possible the senior Estonian crew were renditioned if sabotage was suspected.
...
Of course we can't know this we can only speculate and deduct...

So a conspiracy theory, then.

...comparing it to...Egyptian nationals...

So you are trying to argue a pattern of behavior, contrary to what you previously claimed.

Think hard, where do you imagine...

So a conspiracy theory, then.

You keep saying you're just reporting factual stuff, current events. But it doesn't take very long for you to spin tall tales in your head and imagine it must be the truth. This is why you and other armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[JayUtah]

At least I research issues...

We've seen the quality of your research.

 

[Vixen]

No, you were asked to provide the minutes that supported your claim. That there was Soviet equipment delivered on the Estonia under orders of the CIA.

See if you had just claimed that there was Soviet stuff on them fine, but that isn't evidence that the CIA were involved at all. Essentially you have taken a thing that happened (Soviet things transported on Estonia) and then extrapolated wildly that it was at the behest of the CIA with no evidence at all.

It is common knowledge that Carl Bildt was working with the CIA to help the newly independent Estonia develop its own intelligence services. Heck, it even brought over a US citizen with Estonian roots to lead the way. Bildt can be given a lot of credit for helping the Baltic states sever ties with the USSR regime. But it did cause resentment amongst the old school stalinists who had trained under that era.

 

[Vixen]

Point to where I've mindlessly handwaved anything away.

Also your "research" often relies on delusional cranks like Anders Bjorkman and very regularly gets even basic facts wrong.

You dismissively said the senior missing Estonian crew had drowned.

You also said the two Egyptian guys...oh, it doesn't matter.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You dismissively said the senior missing Estonian crew had drowned.

That's the most parsimonious conclusion. If you want to argue otherwise you have to actually provide evidence. If you do, I'll listen, but so far it's just been speculation.

You also said the two Egyptian guys...oh, it doesn't matter.

Were asylum seekers who were illegally deported from Sweden back to Egypt.

Which is true.

 

[quadraginta]

The person or persons have to be effectively removed first. We are talking about intention to enforce disappearance and its activation. The fact the two Egyptian guys were lucky enough to have a perspicacious lawyer who went to enormous lengths to find out where his client had vanished to, literally snatched off the street whilst in a phone call to him, was circumstance. Had that lawyer not sleuthed his client down, it would not have been 'incommunicado for only 2 days'. We are talking about intent here not outcome.

The crime is not what happened, but what might have happened if things had only gone the way they wanted them to.

I see. This is an interesting system of jurisprudence you advocate.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Actually I was extensively researching 1940 - 1942 in particular for a research project with a co-author. We went through every newspaper of the period, including the German ones (which were locked away in a special part of the British Museum Newspaper Library, [presumably to protect against vandals and souvenir hunters]). Our particular area of interest was the Swedish/Finnish aspect (yes, all of those newspapers were there, too). However, I became quite engrossed with many of the articles in the TIMES; incredibly detailed and well-written, great journalism in that paper once upon a time. I thought I had photocopied that particular article but either I didn't after all or it is mislaid.

I really couldn't give a toss whether some random person on the internet believes me or not. It is your prerogative. It is not anything that bothers me.

BTW I have never found a good history book on the subject. IMV the on the spot reporting of newspapers of the day as it was developing news is far more informative and imparts what people were really thinking at the time, instead of looking back and reinterpreting everything with a 60K word-limit set by the publishers.

You don't have to take the word of someone on the internet, the information is well recorded and easily available.

Times reporters were not chatting with German frontline troops.
It's as preposterous as wheeled submaris

 

[zooterkin]

No, at no point was I referring to a missing person or persons. I was always specifically referring to Sweden obeying the CIA and delivering persons the CIA wanted. Another example, is the delivery of former Soviet military equipment via the Estonia passenger ferry on the orders of the CIA, and as minuted by the Rikstag (senate). This is all factual.


Nothing to do with being an asylum seeker and deportations.

Citation, please.

Here you go:


https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

from the Rikstag's archives itself.

Could you highlight the part that refers to the CIA? I'm having trouble seeing it.

There is a reason Sapo, KSI and MUST are called 'secret services'. Would you expect to see the minutes of MI5 and MI6 in Hansards?

As I said, Goran Persson put a fence around KSI and told Hirschfeld, Appeal Court Judge not to investigate beyond his remit.

Think hard, where do you imagine smuggled military equipment goes? It wasn't ordered by the government for the people. The customs guy who blew the whistle, said the order to let the equipment through unexamined at customs came from higher up than the government (i.e., MUST/KSI).

Another failure to back up your claims.

I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.

 

[Mojo]

I did explain to you at the time that I couldn't find the column in which the TIMES journalist in the early 1940's did chat to German soldiers on the front line expressing their opinion of the Brits.

No, your initial response was to refuse to look for it. When you eventually provided a date and page number for the column, it turned out to be the Times reporting, 2nd hand, what a German newspaper had reported.

Incidentally, the German newspaper in question seems from contemporary reports to have been owned by Hermann Goering, and to have been regarded as something of a mouthpiece for him (described by the New York Times of 11th Nov 1941, for example, as an "organ of Reich Marshal Hermann Goering").

 

[Andy_Ross]

All the German press was a mouthpiece for the party by the time the war started.

Even the Times was subject to censorship under the Energency Powers Act in the UK.

 

[Mojo]

All the German press was a mouthpiece for the party by the time the war started.

They were most likely reporting what the party told them to say soldiers were saying.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Reports from Stalingrad were carefully managed as the situation became more desperate. Antony Beevor's 'Stalingrad' covers it well. it's one of the better books on the battle, it lays to rest a lot of the myths around it.

Also TIKhistory has extensive, 'day by day' videos on Stalingrad that go in to more detail than anyone would ever want, there are 47 of them averaging 40 minutes each. They are very good.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNSNgGzaledi9jQeOzCUtBP2pxYdCYiXX&si=eIoVVPuwof6hNdDB

his other videos on economics can be ignored but they are kept separate to the history