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How many "Christians" really believe?

Freethinker

Graduate Poster
Freethinker
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,356
Observation over the years leads me to believe that many church-going Christians have no more belief in a god than I do. These people go to church and profess belief to belong to the social club that is a church. In my opinion, these people are behaving just like adults talking about Santa Claus in front of children, supporting each other's fantasy so they can keep up the game of being church members.

A great many of these people are misfits and outcasts, even criminals who "found God" who don't fit in with the rest of the community, but who are welcomed at the church.

While the game these people play seems harmless, their presence in church and their claim of Christianity when polled gives support and credence to the nutcase fundamentalists who use the church-going numbers as a basis for their efforts.

Anybody care to make a guess as to how many Christians are really these "play-acting" believers? My guess is in the 50% range, although this is something you would never get these people to admit. I'd have a hard time paying 10% of my gross household income to belong to a club.
 
doggamn, I thought I 'd never find this. Christian rock pioneer Larry Norman once put out a poem (on his Street Level album). I forget the title, but here it is

Larry Norman said:
The first time that I went to church was on a Sunday morning.
And from what I’d heard, I figured I’d spend me whole time yawning.
At 18 years of age or so, I thought I knew it all.
Me hair was long, me jeans were tight.
I loved a knife or buckle fight,
Providing mates stood left and right,
And those we fought were small.

But me mates and me, we’d never been,
So off to church we filed.
We marched inside, ‘bout three abreast,
Straight down the middle aisle.
Some of us were smoking cigs. Ron was sucking candies.
We sat in what they called a pew,
And look around to see just who would come inside.
Let me tell you, everyone dressed like dandies.

The row behind was full of dames, you shoulda seen their looks.
And one old dear, she gave me a smile, and offered me some books.
Ha! We opened them, passed them around.
You shoulda seen the words, all set out like poetry is.
The words put us in a tizz,
And Fred says through his lemon fizz,
“These books is for the birds.”
“Shhhh! Tsk tsk tsk tsk,” one old lady says,
And the whole place buzzed.
Sam turns and says, “Oh, do hush up.
You make more noise than us.”

We looked around the building and it really was revealing.
Sam says, “Hey mates, hey, get this score.
There ain’t no carpets on the floor.
See the rafters. They’re so poor they can’t afford a ceiling.
Can’t afford electric either, using candles everywhere.
And colored windows like me granny’s, at the bottom of her stairs."
“Shut your face,” I says to Sammy. “I’m for listening. So is Ron.”

And from the left, without a noise came a line of little boys.
And Sam says in a puzzled voice, “Q, they’ve all got nighties on.”
Then came men, in robes, with banners.
“Look at that one, must be queer.
Then they dare condemn us for the way we choose our gear.”
Then there’s a minister, you know, the minister
Whose job’s to preach. The minister, what’s his name?
Those real long prayers and what he preaches sounds just about the same.

I came to church to listen, close, but I can’t dig the chair.
It’s like, shifting sinking sounds,
And words like judgment and reprimand.
Well, me and me mates don’t understand a language quite like that.
I’m used to talking with me mates in words that have a meaning.
But that there church was just about the weirdest place I been in.

If people like that kind of thing, well, then let them. That’s OK.
But let me tell you what I feel.
I feel we need someone who’ll deal in words and thoughts and things that’s real.
I’d listen to what he’d say.

Me mum once said, “Jesus came to help young men like you.”
But Jesus came so long ago, mum, I don’t think it’s true.
But is there someone who can explain to me right now,
Is Christ a myth? A madman’s whim?
Some say that Christ can cure our sin.
Is there a way to contact him?
Or will I die not knowing how.

Listen, I only came to church to see if they could offer hope.
But everything that happened there was way outside my scope.
Like afterwards, outside, there was a beggar on the grass.
He held his hand out to the people,
And they’d smile and then they’d pass.
I’m sure he reached for something real,
For something more than cash.
He begged them for a little cheer
And they all pretended not to hear.
I get the message loud and clear.
Church is middle class.
Click to expand...

ETA: Commentary: I think that most "Pew Warmers" do believe on some level, but not at a visceral one.
 
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Freethinker said:
Observation over the years leads me to believe that many church-going Christians have no more belief in a god than I do. These people go to church and profess belief to belong to the social club that is a church. In my opinion, these people are behaving just like adults talking about Santa Claus in front of children, supporting each other's fantasy so they can keep up the game of being church members.

A great many of these people are misfits and outcasts, even criminals who "found God" who don't fit in with the rest of the community, but who are welcomed at the church.

While the game these people play seems harmless, their presence in church and their claim of Christianity when polled gives support and credence to the nutcase fundamentalists who use the church-going numbers as a basis for their efforts.

Anybody care to make a guess as to how many Christians are really these "play-acting" believers? My guess is in the 50% range, although this is something you would never get these people to admit. I'd have a hard time paying 10% of my gross household income to belong to a club.
Click to expand...

I tend to think of them as 'Pascal' Christians. I was one near the end of my belief. I'd guess a number around 40% to 50%. Normally, these Pascal Christians don't go to church, though. They just answer 'yes' when asked if they believe, but don't go much further than that.
 
I think most people in churches have a belief in some sort of vaguely godlike sort of thing, and most Christians even associate Christ with that vaguely godlike sort of thing. However, they don't give the details a whole lot of thought. Interestingly, a lot of the "how did you become atheist" threads have featured people who, like me, did give it a lot of thought, and came to the conclusion that there wasn't a lot of substance there.

I think you would find that they genuinely believe in right and wrong, that life has a purpose, and that there is some sort of "higher being" associated with that purpose. They probably believe that their loved ones continue to exist after they are dead. Many of them believe in some sort of punishment or judgement associated with evil deeds.
 
I’d guess it’s the old 80/20 law, 80 percent are “believers” because that’s how they was raised up. 20 percent may be for real
 
I've met a lot of people who will say they are Christians, simply because that's what thier family claims to be. They tend to view it like a race or nationality, they were born into a Christian family, so that makes them a Christian (even though they don't go to church or believe in any of it. They just don't even think about it).

Yes, I sometimes wonder how many people in this country think this way, and does it bloat the numbers significantly.
 
I went to a college that was rather religious, about 90% Southern Baptist. Most of the students would have classified themselves as "strong believers", and in discussion classes they were always talking about Jesus this, Jesus that, and testifying as to the depth of their commitment to Jesus.

Yet when I pointed out that if they really believed in Jesus and his teachings, they wouldn't be wasting their time and money sitting around in a middle-class college preparing to make comfortable middle-class lives for themselves, they'd be out selling their possessions, giving their money to the poor, and doing charity work while testifying the message of their god, nobody agreed. All that stuff Jesus said about abandoning your wealth and family and following him? Just air, to those people. They like to sit around in luxury, telling themselves how good they are, how devout, because they vote a certain way every couple of years and have a fricking ceramic angel on top of their bigscreen television.

A real believer would go out and really do something. Start a holy war, work with lepers, preach to the heathen, comfort the depressed, write new books of holy wisdom. Something, anything, but not just getting on with their lives just as if there weren't a god at all.
 
geetarmoore said:
I tend to think of them as 'Pascal' Christians. I was one near the end of my belief. I'd guess a number around 40% to 50%. Normally, these Pascal Christians don't go to church, though. They just answer 'yes' when asked if they believe, but don't go much further than that.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I'm also aware of a fair number of Machiavellian Christians, who support the church as a social institute and attend services without believing.

They tend to be well educated and conservitive (with a small c).
 
Jekyll said:
Hmm, I'm also aware of a fair number of Machiavellian Christians, who support the church as a social institute and attend services without believing.

They tend to be well educated and conservitive (with a small c).
Click to expand...

My mother used to complain that the Mafia are big church-goers. She considered it hypocritical.
 
But if most people did see Church as a social activity and no more, why not form another institution just for that purpose?
 
I think almost every one who claims to be religious is religious. It sounds more like you are asking if they are logical in their application of this religion or maybe do they follow church guidelines? How many Christians really believe in god? Almost every single one (aprox 99.999%). How many Christians follow what their church advises? That would be a significantly lower number.
 
c4ts said:
But if most people did see Church as a social activity and no more, why not form another institution just for that purpose?
Click to expand...

I don't think it's just social. Like I said before, I think they're playing Pascal's wager... The social part of it is nice for some people, because they get to belong to a social group in which their acceptance is guaranteed.
 
Dogdoctor said:
I think almost every one who claims to be religious is religious. It sounds more like you are asking if they are logical in their application of this religion or maybe do they follow church guidelines? How many Christians really believe in god? Almost every single one (aprox 99.999%). How many Christians follow what their church advises? That would be a significantly lower number.
Click to expand...


It depends on your definition of Christian. If you mean the literal definition of people who accept JC as their savior, you are at 100%. If you are talking about people who go to church most Sundays and would answer Christian when asked their religion, I think we are closer to 50%. My belief is that they say they believe in god, but they really don't. They just want to continue to belong to this club that they've belonged to their whole lives. It's a club that let's anybody in, but you have to say the magic words and never ask hard questions.
 
For most of my adult life I assumed that in reality most people shared my atheist beliefs or at least were skeptical of their religious beliefs.

I have changed my view of that, mostly as a result of participating in this forum. I had always assumed that skeptics were pretty much born skeptics and never had any significant relgious beliefs as adults.

In fact, many of the skeptics on this forum seem to have been religous believers at one time. I have taken this to mean that they were real and true believers and actually thought that Jesus was a supernatural entity. And if people who later became skeptics were true believers doesn't that suggest that there are a whole lot of true believers in people who do not profess skepticism?

I think there is another issue going on here that confounds an exact answer to the opening post. I think there is a substantial difference between the way a skeptic and a non-skeptical person views the world.

I am not sure at all that many believers have even pondered the questions that skeptics assume every individual has. A non-skeptic often assumes a correlation between a few facts and a theory is proof of an underlying cause of the correlation. After the non-skeptic has formed his view he is not motivated to revisit the issue. In fact, exactly the opposite. The non-skeptic has no particular interest in soul searching introspection to fight through his biases to arrive at views more consistent with absolute truth.

I don't think a skeptic relates to this exactly. A skeptic is one who imagines that truth does matter. He reasons that the basis for believing something is because it is true and it is important to only believe in true things. There is no reason to believe that the skeptics belief in the importance of truth is any more rational than the non-skeptics view that it isn't all that important. But I think that therein lies the reason why a non-skeptic and a skeptic can discuss something for days and walk away without any understanding of how each other thinks.
 
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Freethinker said:
Anybody care to make a guess as to how many Christians are really these "play-acting" believers? My guess is in the 50% range, although this is something you would never get these people to admit. I'd have a hard time paying 10% of my gross household income to belong to a club.
Click to expand...
Put them in a humvee in Iraq and count what percentage pray. Bet you it'll be more than 50%. It takes a very concious decision to say one doesn't believe in a god. My experience is that most don't think about it very much, but they certainly have never come to the conclusion that they don't believe.

You shouldn't confuse laziness with atheism.
 
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Elind said:
Put them in a humvee in Iraq and count what percentage pray. Bet you it'll be more than 50%. It takes a very concious decision to say one doesn't believe in a god. My experience is that most don't think about it very much, but they certainly have never come to the conclusion that they don't believe.

You shouldn't confuse laziness with atheism.
Click to expand...

And you shouldn't confuse fear with piety.
 
Fear brings out hope. And sometimes, belief in things we can't prove is the only hope we've got.
 
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