Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Emily's Cat]

Were you gender neutral when you worked there?

What does "gender neutral" mean to you?

I'm gender neutral, and have been my entire life. I think gendered expectations of presentation and behavior are utter hogwash, and they impose arbitrary barriers to opportunity and eqaul participation in society.

On the other hand... I'm not sex neutral. I'm objectively, verifiably, and unquestionably female.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is where it breaks down. You can't argue that gender is meaningless half the time- if that's true, then you're arguing for an end to sex or gender based discrimination, period. But, if gender does mean something, you have to define it somehow. It can't be "I feel it in my bones." You have to pick: no mens/ladies rooms at all, or define once and for all what that means.

Your post only makes sense if you conflate sex and gender.

Gender is meaningless all the time. It's an artificially imposed construct that largely serves to police the behaviors of males and females and force them into little bitty boxes that limit their ability to participate equally in society. Historically, gender has been used to elevate and privilege males while keeping females in a dependent and subservient role.

Sex is not meaningless. It's an observable material reality of our species. And it has ramifications for each of us as an individual as well as for the continuation of humanity.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Am I the only one here who doesn't claim to have a gender identity? I think Emily the Cat has said something similar, but I may be mistaken.

I just don't see what it means. I feel more like I have a soul than like I have a gender identity and I don't believe in souls. Help me out here, I'm going through a bit of FOMO.

I don't believe in souls, gendery or otherwise. I don't accept the artificial stereotypes of gender, I don't conform to them, and I think they're made-up ********* that borders on religion.

I'm agenderist in the same way I'm atheist. I don't believe in it, and I don't accept that the beliefs of other people should hold any sway over my life on those subjects.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then why the **** not just leave it at that, define it as that, accept it as that, and NONE OF THIS WOULD BE ANYWHERE NEAR THIS DIFFICULT FOR NO REASON!

Because some people, largely but not exclusively males, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the privilege of transgressing female boundaries and disregarding female consent... but don't want to have to get a doctor's note to be allowed to do so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm still 100% lost as to "identity" in context being used here even means.

In the psychological sense, "identity" is the collection of characteristics that make you who you are. They are how you would describe yourself as a person, divorced from your body. It's the mental construct of "self" that we carry around, and it's a combination of how we see ourselves, how we want to see ourselves, and how we want other people to see us. It's an amalgam of what we like and dislike, what is important to us in terms of content of character, what we value and what we disregard.

The problem with the psychological concept of identity, is that it's entirely self-focused and subjective. None of us has any ability to impose our desired psychological identity on other people. No matter how much I view myself as witty and funny, and how deeply I wish for other people to perceive me as witty and funny... how people actually perceive me is out of my control. And I've learned over my 40+ years of life that other people just don't find me funny.

And for a normal person, with a healthy, well-developed psyche, this is okay. As we move beyond childhood, normal humans develop a multi-faceted view of themselves and understand that what we wish and what is are often very different. We learn what aspects of ourselves can be shaped and honed so that we can grow into the person we wish to be, and we can become the person we want others to see us as. But we also learn to accept those aspects of ourselves that are innate, or which cannot be reasonably molded. We learn that while we might wish that other people see us as debonair spies... we genuinely dislike martinis regardless of whether they're shaken or stirred, and that pretending to be Bond would be just that - pretense, and not real.

We also learn, as we grow beyond childhood and the self-absorption that is normal for that stage of our development, that living as a façade of ourselves, engaging in constant pretense, is unhealthy for us as well as our relationships. And we learn to accept ourselves for who we are, and to seek relationships that allow us to be our best and truest selves.

On the other hand, "identity" in the legal sense is an objective measure of what you are. It's the set of physical hallmarks and traits that allows a stranger to verify that you are who you say you are.

 

[smartcooky]

Don't conflate sex and gender. Gender segregated bathroom/shower facilities are not common, and are an incredibly new thing that has been forced on the female population against our will. Prior to very recently, those spaces have been overwhelmingly SEX segregated.

But that is precisely what the TRA's want to have happen! They make every effort to confuse the issue with gobbledygook, social mumbo-jumbo, and fabulist ideas; they want Gender and Sex conflated, they want the segregation, but they want it based gender not biological sex; they want to claim that transgender biological males are women so that they can inveigle their way into female personal spaces and onto female sports teams.

 

[Matthew Best]

Dr Helen Webberley from Gender GP has posted on Twitter complaining about the state of trans healthcare in the UK. Here's what she said:

"I am a GP, I am self-taught in trans healthcare. I treated an 11 year old with blockers and a 12 year old with testosterone. This was fully scrutinised by a Medical Practitioners Tribunal and they determined this was good and necessary care. So why is the NHS saying that we should not let kids socially transition, prevent them from accessing blockers at the start of puberty, certainly no hormones until they are adults? Denying trans youth the healthcare that they need causes immense harm and the people responsible for this must be called out. Trans youth deserve the best healthcare possible. And yes, that includes blockers, hormones and surgery."

This has not gone down well with the responders on Twitter.

 

[Aber]

Forstater case compensation judgement is now out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z1zzc_88xaGp5VxXot6m6t_7JxT7wuQY/view?ref=forstater.com

including aggravated damages

The Tribunal found that, taken as a whole, these public statements on the Respondents’ behalf amounted to oppressive or high-handed conduct in overstating judicial observations about the Claimant’s belief and in equating that belief to bigotry.

The Tribunal concluded that an additional award of £2,000 was appropriate, taking the total award for injury to feelings, including aggravated damages, to £27,000.

 

[Darat]

Dr Helen Webberley from Gender GP has posted on Twitter complaining about the state of trans healthcare in the UK. Here's what she said:

"I am a GP, I am self-taught in trans healthcare. I treated an 11 year old with blockers and a 12 year old with testosterone. This was fully scrutinised by a Medical Practitioners Tribunal and they determined this was good and necessary care. So why is the NHS saying that we should not let kids socially transition, prevent them from accessing blockers at the start of puberty, certainly no hormones until they are adults? Denying trans youth the healthcare that they need causes immense harm and the people responsible for this must be called out. Trans youth deserve the best healthcare possible. And yes, that includes blockers, hormones and surgery."

This has not gone down well with the responders on Twitter.

Is there a link to it not on Twitter - non-members can't see Twitter any longer.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Your post only makes sense if you conflate sex and gender.

Gender is meaningless all the time. It's an artificially imposed construct that largely serves to police the behaviors of males and females and force them into little bitty boxes that limit their ability to participate equally in society. Historically, gender has been used to elevate and privilege males while keeping females in a dependent and subservient role.

Sex is not meaningless. It's an observable material reality of our species. And it has ramifications for each of us as an individual as well as for the continuation of humanity.

I'm sorry if you missed my point, but I agree with you. There are many people taking up both sides of the argument when it's convenient to do so. "Gender is a meaningless social construct" is brought up when it enhances their standing, but they will switch easily to "gender is important, and my gender is internally defined so you just have to accept it."

Apparently, gender identity is only important sometimes.

I just want people to pick a lane and stick with it, whether I agree or not. The goalpost moving makes me dizzy.

 

[Manger Douse]

Forstater case compensation judgement is now out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z1zzc_88xaGp5VxXot6m6t_7JxT7wuQY/view?ref=forstater.com

including aggravated damages

The total I'm reading says £100,000

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-on-biological-sex-awarded-100000-by-tribunal

 

[Matthew Best]

Is there a link to it not on Twitter - non-members can't see Twitter any longer.

That's why I quoted it - so you don't need to go to Twitter?

 

[Darat]

That's why I quoted it - so you don't need to go to Twitter?

Ah right - thought that was just an extract.

 

[Matthew Best]

Ah right - thought that was just an extract.

That was three quarters of it. The remaining sentence is this:

"And let’s not forget - early access to blockers and hormones prevents the need for: Top Surgery, Facial Feminisation Surgery, Breast Augmentation and Suicide."

 

[Matthew Best]

I did check to make sure it wasn't a parody, because it seems like one. It does appear to be genuine. Poe's Law, etc.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Human sexuality - Jesus, what a mess.

The profound neurosis and fetishisation it must take to drive people to this madness.

 

[d4m10n]

"And let’s not forget - early access to blockers and hormones prevents the need for: Top Surgery, Facial Feminisation Surgery, Breast Augmentation and Suicide."

Big if true.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Cain]

But the majority of the arguments are not being made to turn everything unisex... the arguments being made are to make them be separated on the basis of gender identity instead of sex. And that makes no sense.

I can see a plausible case being made for spas and changing rooms due to exposure and voyeurism, but what about restrooms? If you're against a gender identity standard for restrooms, I'd like to know why. Because enforceability is not just an issue for self-ID. I can waltz into many office buildings right now and use a toilet for free, but if I want to go to a sauna or take a shower, I probably have to pass by a staff member. Access to those facilities is limited because they usually have a price. They're also not as necessary as restrooms. I cannot remember using a communal shower or changing room in my adult life.

 

[smartcooky]

Human sexuality - Jesus, what a mess.

The profound neurosis and fetishisation it must take to drive people to this madness.

Yup, and it really isn't that hard... its straightforward commonsense. There are two, and only two biological sexes... male and female. There are no others. It doesn't matter what gender you are, or what gender you feel you are or what gender claim you are - whichever of the two biological sexes you were born as is what you are and what you always will be. The problem is that people with a TRA agenda want to create a set of alternative facts to make it confusing so that they can use that confusion to satisfy their chosen agenda.

 

[Ron Obvious]

I can see a plausible case being made for spas and changing rooms due to exposure and voyeurism, but what about restrooms? If you're against a gender identity standard for restrooms, I'd like to know why. Because enforceability is not just an issue for self-ID.

If that's the case, why segregate such facilities at all? If segregation is a requirement, I really can't see the case for gender segregation instead of sex segregation under any circumstances.

Obviously that goes for sports, shelters, and prisons as well. Sex segregation exists for obvious reasons, whereas gender segregation is a solution looking for a problem and is called for only to validate the feelings of those with gender dysphoria that they really are the opposite sex.