Israeli state terrorism

[Mephisto]

Sure, it's easy!

For average guys like me, can you explain, succinctly, how exactly blowing up Isreali civilians, which invariably results in retaliation, in any way, shape or form "ensures the safety" of palistinain citizens?

I'd be glad to explain although I thought most "average" guys could have figured it out, succinctly. Just as in any war, occupied people feel helpless. They know they are too far behind technologically, they know they cannot stop the occupation and they feel that they are "innocent" in their situation as citizens of an occupied country so innocents on the side of the occupation are seen as an equal-opportunity target.

It happened in the American West, it happened in Vietnam, it happened in Northern Ireland, it happened in Lebanon, it's happening now in Iraq. Apparently the old adage, 'history is doomed to repeat itself' is especially true among those who pay no attention. Israel's "war on terrorism" has been going on for decades and they are seeing very little headway (otherwise they have no complaint, right?). This was my greatest worry when Bush put on the mantle of Crusader and one of the reasons I protest the war in Iraq.

I have mourned the loss of Israeli Olympic athletes, the violent death of innocent young Jews and the tolls it must take on the minds of the people of Israel. I've also mourned the death of countless Palestinians who live in poverty and are at the mercy of armed thugs who are willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent Palestinians to prove their twisted points.

It seems to me that all sides of this war are both right and wrong. The problem is the thinking used to solve the problem is too conventional, too Biblical to work. If I could be a diety-for-a-day, I would solve the entire problem (Biblically) by destroying every single religious building, church, synagog, mosque or landmark and that would just be to get their attention. Then, I would strike every single person in the area mute and make all their clothes disappear so that no one in the entire area would be dressed, nor could they speak (maybe I should make them forget written language too or they'll be killing each other with pencils).

It may just be fanciful speculation, but it would certainly make their similarities more evident than their differences.

 

[Cleopatra]

I disagree.

(emphasis mine.)

So you see Cleo Arafat stole billions from the Palestinians. That's billions with a "B". And while he claimed poverty to the world he stole billions from the mouths of Palestinians. What a guy.. And to this very day those billions have never been recovered and he's a hero to the Palestinians. Bizzare. So he did contribute to the conditions we now see in Gaza and the West Bank.

Maybe I didn't worded it well. I agree with you. For their condition the former PA has a huge part of responsibility.

I feel the bad Hamas does outweighs the good it may do in your opinion.

You see it from your part. For them they are heroes and for those that they are not heroes at least they are not corrupted.

All the more reason to make peace with the Israelis and reject the dead end foreign policy of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Before the "Tunisians" arrived the Palestinians were doing lightyears better than after the "Tunisians" arrived...now they live in abysmal poverty, under the sonic booms of Israeli warplanes, thanks to the leadership of Arafat, the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.

Actually it's not only because of them. Poverty tends to accumulate and the dead end of the peace talks weren't escorted by measures that would built mutual trust.

Tell me Cleo. Has Israel tried, I mean really tried to make peace with the Palestinians? Or has all those decades of negotiations and peace treaties been an Israeli "trick". I am not trying to be flippant.

Yes Israel has been trying systematically to find a way but what most people seem to overlook is that Israel is a new born country and it spends oo much time in security issues instead of building its identity. The catastrophy for Israel will be the settlers. All these foreigners that have nothing in common. Common religion is not enough to glue people together. With all these imported Israelis, the future of the Israeli society isn't very rose. The settlers don't have any bond with the local Arabs,they don't have any bond with the natives and they arrived in a middle of a fierce conflict,they arrived hungry to a promised land that doesn't exist and the worse is that they are not used in the hard work and restricted life of the natives, they expect too much.

Israel's march to Peace is a titanic deed that's why it goes that slow.

 

[webfusion]

++ bump ++

Indeed, now HAMAS can be said to represent the Palestinians, legitimately.


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
""We believe it is in the interest of everybody to ride the train of Hamas because this train is going to reach [its destination]," said Khaled Mashal (in Damascus) when interviewed after the victory.

Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of Israel. THAT is the destination.

 

[Elind]

I also read about the issue of the sonic booms, which has been brought before the Israeli Supreme Court in an effort to stop them.

He said sonic bombs, and he meant sonic bombs. It sounds much better when ranting.

 

[webfusion]

Correction --- Khaled Mashal has now clarified things a bit:

Commenting on whether Hamas will remain sworn to Israel's destruction,
Mashal denied this was the case: "You Westerners have got it wrong: our
Charter does not call for Israel's destruction at all. The Arabic actually
says that the Israeli occupation of Palestine must end."

OIC.

 

[Elind]

While I have to return to comment Demon's opening post I need to comment that because my blood pressure goes to 200 when I read such things.
Zenith-Nadir. Why do you expect the Palestinian people to be happy with the occupation? They suffer! Of course they try to resist in every way they can. It's an occupation. O-c-c-u-p-a-t-i-o-n. They are sort of prisoners. Do you know any prisoner being happy with his status? They are prisoners of History and they try to change that. I object to your attempt to protray them all as criminals.

You are a real sucker for the underdog aren't you? Get a ranter going and you start to cry. Somehow seem inconsistent with your more rational posts.

Could you give us some examples of where "prisoners" are given every opportunity (40 or 50 years worth) to negotiate their status to freedom, or statehood if you will, yet have taken every single opportunity to pass (ask my friend Clinton if you doubt)?

(never pass an opportunity to pass an opportunity, and all that crap)

Hamas operative Mohammed Rantisi, whipped out the late Yasser Arafat’s motto: We shall hold talks as though there is no terror and wage terror as though there are no talks.

 

[webfusion]

Mr Rantisi -- wasn't he killed by Israel?

I would not be very surprised to see Israel go ahead and kill other HAMAS figures from this point forward --including Mashal.

• Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Saturday that if Hamas continues involvement in terrorist activities, Israel will continue a policy of targeted assassinations against Hamas officials.
  
  "No one is immune to a military response, even if they are in the ruling party," Mofaz said on Israel Channel Two's "Meet the Press."

 

[Elind]

Mr Rantisi -- wasn't he killed by Israel?

I would not be very surprised to see Israel go ahead and kill other HAMAS figures from this point forward --including Mashal.

Which one? Do you think names are more unique than Smith is elsewhere?

Why would you NOT be surprised to see more of the same?

Here's another good perspective, from a different side than Demon comes from, but a lot closer to home.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11059384/

 

[Vagabond]

Some of you people need to learn to make concise points. Nobody is going to read your four foot long posts and you can't carry on a discussion like that.

The Israelis are squatters on land that doesn't and never belonged to them. They claim ownership of this land based on a few wars they started. This is the equivalent of going to your neighbors house knocking on his door beating the crap out of him then claiming his house on the basis that you won a fair fight.

Just like the insurgents in Iraq are people who are trying to repel invaders, the Palestinians are doing the same. There can be no criminal act in doing such a thing. In war you are allowed to fight in whatever manner you are able. A suicide bomb is not any worse than a bomb dropped out of a plane. Their intent is identical. Often not having modern equipment forces you to use more brutish methods. But, that is the only difference.

 

[webfusion]

Okey-dokey, vagabond, if you say so.

 

[Vagabond]

Okey-dokey, vagabond, if you say so.

I am glad you have seen the light and bow to my superior intellect.

 

[webfusion]

Whatever...

 

[Vagabond]

Whatever...

Which thus sums up the total intellectual content of your 1600+ posts. You must be so proud.

 

[Freakshow]

Some of you people need to learn to make concise points. Nobody is going to read your four foot long posts and you can't carry on a discussion like that.

The Israelis are squatters on land that doesn't and never belonged to them. They claim ownership of this land based on a few wars they started. This is the equivalent of going to your neighbors house knocking on his door beating the crap out of him then claiming his house on the basis that you won a fair fight.

Just like the insurgents in Iraq are people who are trying to repel invaders, the Palestinians are doing the same. There can be no criminal act in doing such a thing. In war you are allowed to fight in whatever manner you are able. A suicide bomb is not any worse than a bomb dropped out of a plane. Their intent is identical. Often not having modern equipment forces you to use more brutish methods. But, that is the only difference.

Bomb dropped out of plane, targeted to a military targert. Suicide bomb, targeted to kill as many civilians as possible, with no military target at all.

You really don't see the difference?

 

[Freakshow]

The Israelis are squatters on land that doesn't and never belonged to them.

What is the etymology of the word "Jew"?

 

[Skeptic]

What is the etymology of the word "Jew"?

A few more questions:

1). What religion did Jesus belong to?
2). Where did he live?
3). Where was he born?

Okay, okay, that's ancient history. Something a bit more current:

4). There was a community of people of a certain religion living in Gaza and Hebron and "Arab east jerusalem" (etc., etc.) for centuries, until the Arabs rioted and expelled / killed them in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s. What religion were these people practicing? (Hint: they worshipped in synagogues.)

Okay, okay, okay. Who care. The point is, the jews are squatters on land that does not belong to them due to wars "they started". So, here are a few questions about that:

5). In 1948, there were 600,000 jews in Palestine. They fought a war, on three fronts, with seven Arab nations whose total population was ca. 100,000,000. Does this means:

a). The 600,000 jews deliberately started a war of annihilation on three fronts against a population that overwhelmed them at least 100-fold, if not more?

b). The Arabs vowed to throw the 600,000 jews into the sea and started a war?

(Hint: the Arab armies invaded the very night israel was declared. If israel "started a war", it had a couple of hours at most to do so.)

Oh, whatever. These are just facts, and as Homer Simpson said, "facts, schmacts--you can prove just about anything that's true with facts." The important opinion is that the jews are squatters. That's all that matters.

Vagabond claims the jews need to "find an island somewhere" to live. This is his "intelligent" solution, but, in reality, it's merely a re-statement of the Nazi "Madagascar plan": since jews keep causing trouble with their continued existence, the "humane solution" is to isolate them, as one isolates all contagious disease carriers, in "an island somewhere".

The Nazis chose Madagascar, consider remote and isolated enough to keep the jewish virus contained. I wonder, however, what island Vagabond has in mind. After all:

7). If one finds an island to send the jews to, doesn't the land of the island belongs to the natives? Wouldn't they be justified in resisting? Wouldn't the jews be squatters there too?

So, unless Vagabond can pinpoint a certain unihnabited yet inahbitable island for the jews to move so, isn't he really saying that the jews are squatters anywhere they are since no land belongs to them?

So if the answer to (7) is "yes", please answer:

8). Take a globe. Find a place in the world that IS jewish land. Please be a bit more specific than "some island somewhere". If it doesn't exist, where should the jews go?

 

[Vagabond]

Another huge pile of it. Nearly all of the modern day people who call themselves "jews" are not direct decendants of the people who lived there in the time of Jesus or any other time. I also find it more than a little curious you would try to use kinship for somebody you had killed as a basis for anything. Hell, everybodies ancestors lived in Africa at one time or another. Let's just go kick everybody out that happens to be there now. That is logic for you.

I just watched a documentary on the Six day war a a little while ago. They specifically said that the Israelis not only fired the first shot but spent the previous two years spying and making plans based on the fact they would make a pre-emptive attack and hit the Egyptian airforce on the ground. Here's an actual logical question for you. If the Egyptians fired first what were all their planes doing on the ground? Why were all pilots and army asleep at the time? Many of the Egyptians died from lack of water walking back across the Sinai. If their intention was to invade. Why wouldn't they have had water stockpiles at the border? The only people who don't think the Israelis started this war are delusional Israelis. The UN knew they did too, thus why they kept telling them to stop.

Hey, there are plenty of groups throughout history that lost their lands or never had any and want them. The Kurds, Armenians, American Indians, Maori, etc, etc, etc. The fact you don't have anyplace to go is not justification to steal somebody else's lands.

Where should the Jews go? Anyplace that isn't going to get them killed would be a good choice. Although logic hasn't ever played a part in any of their decisions up to now. No reason to expect a change.

 

[David Swidler]

Another huge pile of it. Nearly all of the modern day people who call themselves "jews" are not direct decendants of the people who lived there in the time of Jesus or any other time. Hell, everybodies ancestors lived in Africa at one time or another. Let's just go kick everybody out that happens to be there now. That is logic for you.

Evidence?

Actually, the evidence contradicts your assertions. Consider the recent genetic study (discussed on these borads nought but two weeks ago) that 40% of Ashkenazi (European) Jews are descended of four women from, of all places, Palestine, sometime in the early Middle Ages.

I just watched a documentary on the Six day war a a little while ago. They specifically said that the Israelis not only fired the first shot but spent the previous two years spying and making plans based on the fact they would make a pre-emptive attack and hit the Egyptian airforce on the ground. Here's an actual logical question for you. If the Egyptians fired first what were all their planes doing on the ground? Why were all pilots and army asleep at the time? The only people who don't think the Israelis started this war are delusional Israelis. The UN knew they did too, thus why they kept telling them to stop.

You're ignoring the context of that pre-emptive strike. It follwed weeks of Egyptian military buildup, Egyptian demands (to which the UN capitulated) to remove UN peacekeeping forces from the Sinai Peninsula, explicitly stated intentions to wipe Israel off the map, and strategic Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian alliances for that purpose. If Israel waited any longer there wouldn't have been an Israel.

Hey, there are plenty of groups throughout history that lost their lands or never had any and want them. The Kurds, Armenians, American Indians, Maori, etc, etc, etc. The fact you don't have anyplace to go is not justification to steal somebody else's lands.

Where should the Jews go? Anyplace that isn't going to get them killed would be a good choice. Although logic hasn't ever played a part in any of their decisions up to now. No reason to expect a change.

Except that history indicates no such places exist, certainly not over long periods. Do tell, what's the problem with asserting one's ancestral and ancient right to a land from which one's ancestors were forcibly removed?

 

[Vagabond]

If Israel waited any longer there wouldn't have been an Israel.<<<<<

Another huge load of it. You willingly put yourselves into water up to your nostrils and then use the excuse you might drown as the justification for everything. Somebody splashing enough to put a little water up your nose is an excuse to kill them. I got a solution for you. Get out of the water.

 

[Mycroft]

Another huge pile of it. Nearly all of the modern day people who call themselves "jews" are not direct decendants of the people who lived there in the time of Jesus or any other time.

I’m just curious, how do you see this as relevant?

Here's an actual logical question for you. If the Egyptians fired first what were all their planes doing on the ground?

Nobody claims Egypt fired the first shot. Why would you pretend they did?

Hey, there are plenty of groups throughout history that lost their lands or never had any and want them. The Kurds, Armenians, American Indians, Maori, etc, etc, etc. The fact you don't have anyplace to go is not justification to steal somebody else's lands.

You do realize that this argument could be used just as easily against the Palestinian-Arabs, don’t you?

Where should the Jews go? Anyplace that isn't going to get them killed would be a good choice. Although logic hasn't ever played a part in any of their decisions up to now. No reason to expect a change.

Why should anyone go anywhere? Isn’t it more rational to expect people to stop killing each other?