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Israeli state terrorism

demon

Master Poster
Joined
Aug 1, 2002
Messages
2,736
It`s getting worse and worse.
The Israeli terrorist state is getting more and more brazen as they see how the Europeans and North Americans do nothing about their murderous policies. The Israeli government has been sponsoring state terrorism since its creation. It has never fullfilled its international obligations and has not respected and much less implemented any resolution passed by the Security Council or any other international body.
The most important of those resolutions is Resolution No. 242 of the UN Security Council which ordered Israel to vacate all occupied land. Meanwhile because of the enormous pressure groups the Israelis have organised in N. America and Europe, it will soon be a criminal act to criticise the policies of this racist state.

There is too much complicit silence as everyone runs scared to say anything in the mainstream that might remotely be construed as anti-semitic by the reactionaries, while the true anti-semites (the Palestinians are semites too) and their helpers within the US Administration continue with their relentless genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians people. It is a true shame that Edward Said is no longer with us, as, since his death, there are no more Palestinian voices heard or read in western mainstream press.

We now read the article on the unacceptable state terrorism of sonic booms and that "The Israeli defence ministry has barred foreign journalists from entering the Gaza Strip in an apparent attempt to limit reporting on the killing of Palestinian civilians, the firing of artillery shells and the use of "sonic bombs" to terrify the local population."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1605781,00.html

From the article:
'A senior Israeli army intelligence source, who the military would not permit to be named, said the tactic is intended to break civilian support for armed Palestinian groups. "We are trying to send a message in a way that doesn't harm people. We want to encourage the Palestinian public to do something about the terror situation," he said. "What are the alternatives? We are not like the terrorists who shoot civilians. We are cautious. We make sure nobody is really hurt."'

To summarize, the source admits that the tactic is aimed at a civilian population and is designed to 'break' them of a particular attitude. This is, without doubt, terrorism, which is defined in the Introduction to the Terrorism Act 2000 (Section 1, subsections 1 & 2) as the ‘use or threat of action’ that:

‘is designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public (italics mine), ‘…for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause’ and where such action ‘involves serious damage to property’ or ‘creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public’
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1

This action by the Israeli Government is clearly dangerous to human life, property and infrastructure and is expressly intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. This is, prima facie, state terrorism. Moreover, it still qualifies as terrorism regardless of its effects on the civilian population, since under the UK definition, the expression of intention by your unnamed military source alone is sufficient.

We also read the WSWS article "Sharon government escalates military offensive against Palestinians"
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/nov2005/gaza-n011.shtml

Is there any reaction to use of terrorism by this state from Blair or Bush? None.

Uri Avnery, who knows Sharon better than most having studied his actions for decades, warned us last November that Abbas is the next target for Sharon "Let no one have any illusions: Sharon will use every means, overt and covert, in order to destroy any “moderate” Palestinian leadership. As of now, Abu-Mazen is Enemy No. 1."
The reasons why are given in the article:
http://tinyurl.com/7lncz

Last Sunday he warned us again: "The long campaign for the elimination of Mahmoud Abbas is entering its final phase...It was impossible to launch a campaign of demonization against him, as had been done to Arafat, with the full participation of all the Israeli and world Jewish media. But in all the media, a daily message was planted: Abbas is a wet rag, Abbas is not worth anything, Abbas is not able to destroy the "terror infrastructure", it's quite useless to talk with him.
...
This week, the style was sharpened. No more pity for poor Abbas, doing his best and failing, but an outright attack on him. Abbas, it is being said, doesn't really want to put an end to terrorism. The news pages of all newspapers, from Maariv to Haaretz, were mobilized for this campaign. The radio and television networks joined in with enthusiasm.
...
At the same time, the violent confrontation broke out again with full force. Who started it?
...
The new round started with the killing of Luay Sa'adi, a militant of the Islamic Jihad in the Tulkarm area, who had already spent five of his 25 years in Israeli prisons. The army described him as a very senior commander, a huge "ticking bomb". The Jihad took up this ludicrous assertion with alacrity, because it justified a major retaliation. In private, Palestinians said that he was just a local activist.

Either way: when Sharon, between breakfast and lunch, gave his assent to the execution, he knew that he was also condemning some Israelis to death - since it was certain that the Jihad would respond with an act of revenge. There is no escape from the conclusion that that was indeed the purpose of the action.

It was confirmed with great speed. A Jihadist from a close-by Palestinian village carried out a suicide bombing in the fruit market of the Israeli town Hadera...

As if it had only been waiting for this outrage, the army went immediately into well-planned action. A choking general blockade was imposed on the northern West Bank. Towns and villages all over the West Bank were cut off again, sometimes only hours after the roadblocks around them had been removed at the insistence of Condoleezza Rice. A general man-hunt against Jihad activists was started, with a broad hint that the turn of Hamas and Fatah activists would not be far behind."
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10832.htm

Of course this article was written before the murder of the Hamas and Al Aqsa militants on Tuesday. Also designed, as all his (Sharon's) actions, to provoke more violence so that the West Bank annexation can proceed as planned. As Avnery says: "Sharon behaves like a bullfighter, sticking his bandilleras between the shoulders of the bull in order to enrage and bait him, till he lashes out in all directions."

This is also confirmed in the Australian which states: "Israeli missiles destroyed a car in the Gaza Strip yesterday, killing two top militants, drawing threats of retaliation and further weakening Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's efforts to take control of the territory."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17122933%5E2703,00.html

Such silence in the UK media, and the double standards used in reporting on Israel & Palestine. Why is that?

Why the silence on the involvement of US dual loyalist Zionist Likudniks in the highest positions of power in the US who have been using their positions to promote a proxy war in the Middle East to favour Israeli interests?

There is really only one country in the Middle East which consistently by its actions proves what the Palestinian PM said on Monday:
"The Israeli leadership is not one of peace. It is obsessed with an aggressive approach that cannot bring peace," http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3162617,00.html
 
Uh huh. Taking the easiest part first, why can't journalists enter Gaza through Rafah?
 
If I ask you a question demon, will I get an answer or a page full of text where it's hard to tell where the writing is your and where you quoted some one -- hint, quote is not a restricted tag.

Simples question, what makes Israeli eye-witness accounts different from Palestinian eye-witness accounts.
 
Unequal Booms.

I also read about the issue of the sonic booms, which has been brought before the Israeli Supreme Court in an effort to stop them.

"Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and the Gaza Community Mental Health Program appealed to the Supreme Court to stop the supersonicflights."
-- AP - Nov 2nd.

However, it should be noted that the sonic booms are merely sound waves, and cause no actual physical damage, no property damage and do not harm any infrastructure. They are annoying and cause people to be startled, but aren't on a par with artillery shells or air-to-ground missiles (which the IDF also also employs in the current "Operation First Rain" campaign of trying to get the Palestinians to stop their support of terrorism).

Demon, here is my question to all of the OP --
(and I'm trying to be somewhat objective here, since the only mention of terrorism from the Palestinians appeared as a retaliation for Israel killing an Islamic Jihad terrorist leader, as mentioned in your post. This is a turnspeak allegation, as the Hadera suicide attack was one of many similar atrocities carried out by islamic terrorists, and none of them were any different in aim than any other -- to kill jews):

What should the Israelis do at this juncture to satisfy the demands of the Palestinians (a list that is too long to quote here) ?

(Some one asked that same question a few times on another thread of Orwell and no clarification was forthcoming from him, so let's try it here and see how it goes.)
 
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Next topics shall be:

  • The Jewish people are trying to control the world
  • Jews are especially annoyed when they are blamed for the death of Jesus
  • The 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion' is an authentic document
  • Zionists control American foreign policy

P.S. By the way Demon, did you know that the word "Palestinian" does not appear anywhere in UN Resolution 242?
 
We now read the article on the unacceptable state terrorism of sonic booms...

I used to have the patience to wade through one of Demon's diatribes, but there are only so many hours in a day, and these LTC manifestos are so...uniformly boring after a while.

I have, however, seen several sources that condemn these sonic booms as some violation of human rights, and I did want to express a thought on it.

First, it’s contrasted with the refusal of Hamas to honor a cease fire. Not only do they not honor a cease fire, but they bizarrely claim that the act of launching rockets daily is a cease fire simply because it’s less violence than they want to do. Not less violence than they’re capable of, just less than they want.

Second, I observe this is a continuation of an anti-Israel propaganda theme, where a positive moral action is turned around and presented as a negative immoral action. These sonic booms are warnings. They are a message sent to the Palestinians saying, ”Right now all we’re doing is over flying you and letting you know we’re here. What we could be doing is bombing the cr@p out these positions where the rockets are still being launched at our citizens, but for now we’re not doing that because, unlike you, we actually give a damn about civilian casualties. If you do something about this warning, we won’t have to. The next boom you hear might do might do more than disturb your sleep.

When harmless actions such as sonic booms are presented as "state terrorism", the message is very clear that among these anti-Israel propagandists, absolutely no action Israel takes in its defense is acceptable under any circumstances.
 
Uh huh.

Booms from supersonic aircraft = terrorist human rights abuse.
Booms from exploding martyrs = righteous resistance against "occupiers."

Thanks for clearing that up, demon. My best to the other boys in the ward.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to admit that I'm not at all current on what's happening in Israel right now. I think the last major news report I caught was when Sharon made some concessions and Israeli settlers were protesting the forced move.

Demon's post made me painfully aware that, for some reason or other news from Israel and Palestine has come to a standstill (at least through the major news networks). I wasn't aware of the sonic booms being used to keep the Palestinians in line, and although they don't cause casualties or damage, I'm sure they play heavily with the emotions and psychology of a populace that has endured violence for decades.

My biggest question regarding this entire thread is WHY the general population of Palestine must pay (of course paying with broken sleep and frayed nerves is better than with blood) for the extremist actions of a few?

Isn't this a bit like torturing the entire citizenry of a small backwater town because they share a city with a group of violent skinheads? Are you keeping the extremists in check or enraging the populace?

Certainly there are evil people on both sides of this fence, but what I wonder most about is why applying a blanket stereotype to Palestinians is acceptable (they're all terrorists and they all want to destroy Israel), when applying a blanket stereotype to Israelis earns you a reputation for being anti-Semitic?
 
My biggest question regarding this entire thread is WHY the general population of Palestine must pay (of course paying with broken sleep and frayed nerves is better than with blood) for the extremist actions of a few?
I had this discussion with Orwell in another thread. It is not "a few". Allow me to repost what I said before:

It is not a "few" extremists. It is The PLO, Fatah, The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, the Abu Nidal organization, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade, the Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia....

Allow me to repost the beginning of that comment:

What if I was to say to you that Fatah has been attacking Israel since the 60s. The PLO since 1965. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command since '68. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad since the early 70s. Force 17 since the early 70's. The Abu Nidal organization since '74. Hamas since '87. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade, the Popular Resistance Committees.....

All of those organizations throughout all of those decades were made up of Palestinians. Their members were mainly Palestinians, their leaders were mainly Palestinians.
So we are not talking about "a few" extremists Mephisto, we are talking about decades of violence involving tens of thousands of extremists, the majority of whom are Palestinians.

Now to your question "WHY the general population of Palestine must pay"?.

Here's why they pay. From the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip:

Public Opinion Poll #15 - February 2-4, 1995

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/95/poll15b.html#armed

A total of 46% of the respondents expressed their support for armed operations against Israeli targets, 33.5% opposed these operations, and 20.5% of them had no opinion on the subject.
So in 1995 nearly half of the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza & the West Bank supported armed operations.

Public Opinion Poll #27 - April 1997

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/97/poll27a.html#peace

The poll found that support for the peace process has declined sharply from 73% a month ago to 60% in April; and support for suicide armed attacks has almost doubled in one year from 21% in March 1996 (see CPRS Poll #22) to 40% in April 1997.
So in 1997 40% of the civilian population supported suicide armed attacks.

Public Opinion Poll # 2 - 5-9 July 2001

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p2a.html#intifada

92% support armed confrontations against the Israeli army in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip....58% support armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel and 39% oppose them
So in 2001 nearly all of the population supported armed confrontations against the Israeli army in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and 60% supported armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel.

So I've establised that up to 2001 a large part of the Palestinian civilian population supported armed confrontations against Israel - (allthough that starts to drop after 2001 when the Palestinians started to get the crap beat out of them by the IDF).

Additionally documents seized from Palestinian Authority buildings taken during the military incursions into the West Bank and Gaza, have provided clear evidence of Yasser Arafat’s direct authorization of terror attacks against Israeli civilians. So you have the Palestinian Authority AND large parts of the civilian population supporting armed confrontations against Israel.

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.
Ergo Mephisto when you have the Palestinian Authority AND large parts of the civilian population supporting, (key word), armed confrontations against Israel they are no-longer "protected". They are combatants.

Additionally when you have palestinians from Fatah, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade, the Popular Resistance Committees using Palestinian civilians areas for bases of operation as well as for cover and concealment:

Article 52.-General protection of civilian objects

1. Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2.

2. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military of advantage.
Well since combatants - aka terrorists - from Fatah, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade, the Popular Resistance Committees use civilian buildings, homes, businesses, schools, etc as well as official PA buildings and offices as a "contribution to military actions" - aka bases of operations to support armed operations against Israeli targets - then those civilian buildings, homes, businesses, schools, etc... become legit military targets too.

And that is why Israel is so dissapointed with the Palestinian Authority. It ALLOWS combatants to use Palestinian civilians for cover...in other terms - human shields. It makes NO EFFORT at all to separate the Palestinians civilians from the Palestinian militants - in fact in the past it has been proven it supports said militants.

And unfortuanately that is why the general population of Palestine pays for the Palestinians extremists' actions.

[edited to add]

Guys like Demon refer to Israeli military operations against the official PA buildings and offices, civilian buildings, homes, businesses, schools, etc, that the terrorists from Fatah, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade and the Popular Resistance Committees use as bases of operation to support armed operations against Israeli targets as "Israeli state terrorism". And that is exactly why the PA allows terrorists from Fatah, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade and the Popular Resistance Committees to use official PA buildings and offices, civilian buildings, homes, businesses, schools, etc, as bases of operation to support armed operations against Israeli targets. So that folks like Demon can say Israel terrorizes Palestinian civilians.

If the PA would do it's job and fulfill it's obligation under every peace treaty it has signed since 1994 Israel would have no terrorists from Fatah, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Force 17, Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the Tanzim, the Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade and the Popular Resistance Committees to stop.
 
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. . . snip . . .

Now to your question "WHY the general population of Palestine must pay"?

Here's why they pay. From the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip: So in 2001 nearly all of the population supported armed confrontations against the Israeli army in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and 60% supported armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel.

So I've establised that up to 2001 a large part of the Palestinian civilian population supported armed confrontations against Israel - (allthough that starts to drop after 2001 when the Palestinians started to get the crap beat out of them by the IDF). . .

I agree, Israel is taking the steps it believes it must to ensure the safety of its citizens, but I think the Palestinians are only guilty of the same thing. We've discussed the availability of weaponry between the two factions before and agreed that the Palestinians lack of technology and a standing army makes the "suiciders" a attractive option to the extremists there. The fact that they target civilians is sad but not unheard of on either side of this conflict.

What I'm most concerned with is the nearly unforgotten percentage of Palestinians that DON'T support any of the numerous groups who routinely plan violence (usually against Israel, but even against each other). What about that (now) less than 60% of Palestinians who don't feel that Hamas or the Popular People's Front or the People's Front of Judea or whatever terrorist group is in their neighborhood, speaks for them? Aren't they just as innocent in this whole misadventure as the Israeli civilians caught in marketplaces, buses or nightclubs?

I still marvel at the idea that this is called the "Holy Land" because I can't think of a more unholy place in the entire world! If God sent us religion as a lesson, I think the lesson is that mankind will use any reason to draw a line between himself and another man. Religion provides the reason and the impetus to kill another man to prove you are right. If religion was a test we've failed miserably - we can't see the lesson for the bombs.
 
While I have to return to comment Demon's opening post I need to comment that because my blood pressure goes to 200 when I read such things.
Zenith-Nadir. Why do you expect the Palestinian people to be happy with the occupation? They suffer! Of course they try to resist in every way they can. It's an occupation. O-c-c-u-p-a-t-i-o-n. They are sort of prisoners. Do you know any prisoner being happy with his status? They are prisoners of History and they try to change that. I object to your attempt to protray them all as criminals.
 
Bad rhetorics Demon.


It`s getting worse and worse.
The Israeli terrorist state is getting more and more brazen as they see how the Europeans and North Americans do nothing about their murderous policies. The Israeli government has been sponsoring state terrorism since its creation. It has never fullfilled its international obligations and has not respected and much less implemented any resolution passed by the Security Council or any other international body.

The discussion about state terrorism doesn't concern only Israel these days Even the British government seem to have taken up the hobby as the case of the poor Brazilian demonstrates.

States are by definition, the enemy of people. The more democratic a state is the more sophistcated the state terrorism becomes. The Israeli state doesn't need to try that hard to coerce everybody --Israeli citizens indluced--since the country is in War.

While I am really strict when it comes to Human Rights issues I believe that it's tad hypocritical to judge that severely a country that is in a war state, unless there is an agenda involved.

The most important of those resolutions is Resolution No. 242 of the UN Security Council which ordered Israel to vacate all occupied land. Meanwhile because of the enormous pressure groups the Israelis have organised in N. America and Europe, it will soon be a criminal act to criticise the policies of this racist state.

There is too much complicit silence as everyone runs scared to say anything in the mainstream that might remotely be construed as anti-semitic by the reactionaries, while the true anti-semites (the Palestinians are semites too) and their helpers within the US Administration continue with their relentless genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians people. It is a true shame that Edward Said is no longer with us, as, since his death, there are no more Palestinian voices heard or read in western mainstream press.

Have you seen the theatrical play " Everything on Shakespeare in one hour" :) Or better, have you ever tasted the " salade macedoine?" What do we have here?

A little bit of this,a little bit of that in order to extract the sentiment from the audience by force. Palestinians speak one of the semitic languages they are not semites,how many times have been through that? Aftera all antisemitism is not a term that has been invented by the Jews. Also, while the Israel bashers condemn the use of the term "antisemitism" they are unable to explain how the targets of anti-jewish violence are jewish people and communities and not israeli embassies. Enough with this crap.

The new antisemitism is expressed very delicately by the islamic groups that have invaded Europe. You can see it hiding in Demon's words. It's anti-capitalist, anti-western and its target is the western life style. It's just that the place of the "evil" Jew is taken now by Israel. How convenient.

Demon forgets how many conventions the Palestinian party has ignored with the continuous blind violence against civilians and by the use of various forms of humanitarian aid in order to sponsor and organize terrorists act.

Palestinian guerillas don't hesitate to use even the ambulances of Red Cross in order to commit their acts against unarmed civilians and we have to shed a tear for the sonic bombs?

From the article:
'A senior Israeli army intelligence source, who the military would not permit to be named, said the tactic is intended to break civilian support for armed Palestinian groups. "We are trying to send a message in a way that doesn't harm people. We want to encourage the Palestinian public to do something about the terror situation," he said. "What are the alternatives? We are not like the terrorists who shoot civilians. We are cautious. We make sure nobody is really hurt."'
How shocking indeed. Do such things occur in wars? And if the situation is that suffocating in Israel how the news arrived to the office of Guardian?

This action by the Israeli Government is clearly dangerous to human life, property and infrastructure and is expressly intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. This is, prima facie, state terrorism. Moreover, it still qualifies as terrorism regardless of its effects on the civilian population, since under the UK definition, the expression of intention by your unnamed military source alone is sufficient.
Are sonic bombs dangerous to human life?
Is there any reaction to use of terrorism by this state from Blair or Bush? None.
They are busy terrorizing their own people.
Uri Avnery, who knows Sharon better than most having studied his actions for decades, warned us last November that Abbas is the next target for Sharon "Let no one have any illusions: Sharon will use every means, overt and covert, in order to destroy any “moderate” Palestinian leadership. As of now, Abu-Mazen is Enemy No. 1."

This is the definition of the word BS!!! Abu Mazen is the White House's cheri. Sharon won't even dare to think to touch him in any way.

While in the area we discuss the persepctive of both Israel and Palestine join NATO, The Guardian is busy pushing its anti-Israel agenda.

No news here, let's move on.
 
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(Some one asked that same question a few times on another thread of Orwell and no clarification was forthcoming from him, so let's try it here and see how it goes.)

That was me and it is a good question because, in general, the answers generally suck which aids in showing the stripes of the answerer.

Some people just like to bitch.
 
I agree, Israel is taking the steps it believes it must to ensure the safety of its citizens, but I think the Palestinians are only guilty of the same thing.

For average guys like me, can you explain, succinctly, how exactly blowing up Isreali civilians, which invariably results in retaliation, in any way, shape or form "ensures the safety" of palistinain citizens?
 
While I have to return to comment Demon's opening post I need to comment that because my blood pressure goes to 200 when I read such things.
Zenith-Nadir. Why do you expect the Palestinian people to be happy with the occupation? They suffer! Of course they try to resist in every way they can. It's an occupation. O-c-c-u-p-a-t-i-o-n. They are sort of prisoners. Do you know any prisoner being happy with his status? They are prisoners of History and they try to change that. I object to your attempt to protray them all as criminals.
I do not portray all Palestinians as criminals. That is impossible and beyond reason. But when 40-90% of the population supports criminal activity like suicide bombings innocent civilians of a neighboring country and terrorizing a neighboring country then unfortunately they suffer the consequences of that support.

I know the Palestinians are very unhappy about the occupation. So they have two choices, end the occupation via negotiation and non violent means or end the occupation via violent means. To date they have not tried option #1 and that is why they suffer so greatly.

We've discussed the availability of weaponry between the two factions before and agreed that the Palestinians lack of technology and a standing army makes the "suiciders" a attractive option to the extremists there.
Suicide is an attractive option because we are talking about islamofascist nutballs...not statesmen or men with honor.

What I'm most concerned with is the nearly unforgotten percentage of Palestinians that DON'T support any of the numerous groups who routinely plan violence (usually against Israel, but even against each other).
So is it Israel's responsibility to protect these Palestinians from combat or is it the elected officials of the Palestinian Authority who have that obligation?

I still marvel at the idea that this is called the "Holy Land" because I can't think of a more unholy place in the entire world!
They mean holy because of all the bullet holes...;)
 
My biggest question regarding this entire thread is WHY the general population of Palestine must pay (of course paying with broken sleep and frayed nerves is better than with blood) for the extremist actions of a few?

In a nutshell, it's because the extremists are the leaders, and these leaders have the support of the population. Hamas, whose genocidal extremism makes Nazism seem moderate, routinely gets between 40% to 70% support in elections in everything from local city counsel elections to union representation.

Did you know, for example, that Hamas is the official union for the teachers in the United Nations run school system?

Isn't this a bit like torturing the entire citizenry of a small backwater town because they share a city with a group of violent skinheads?

No, it’s not. It’s more like warring with a small nation (population of about three million) run by a group of genocidal thugs who have the popular support of its people.

Are you keeping the extremists in check or enraging the populace?

I think Palestinians are intelligent people who understand the relationship between the policies of their leaders and the consequences. They are not rabid dogs who only can only mindlessly react to suffering with brutal violence.

I agree, Israel is taking the steps it believes it must to ensure the safety of its citizens, but I think the Palestinians are only guilty of the same thing.

Suicide bombers are a purely offensive weapon. Kassam rockets are purely offensive weapons. Palestinians are not trying to protect anything when during a cease-fire they are firing rockets into civilian towns trying to kill random people. Nobody is being protected when during peace negotiations, a suicide-bomber blows up a bus with more than 20 civilians dead. Your opinion is contrary to the evidence.

What I'm most concerned with is the nearly unforgotten percentage of Palestinians that DON'T support any of the numerous groups who routinely plan…

Which is why Israel is using sonic booms instead of rockets.

It’s impossible to separate people by what they think, which is why hundreds of thousands of people must bear the inconvenience of being searched at airports in order to stop the small handful that might actually try to hijack the plane. You can say it’s “unfair” to the hundreds of thousands, but there is no other way to do it.

By the same token, there is no way to take the Palestinian who doesn’t support terrorism and give him a magical pass that exempts him from hearing sonic booms or from being stopped at checkpoints. All you can really do is hope that his leaders, Abbas and the Palestinian Authority, care about his well being enough to change the conditions so that those things are no longer necessary.
 
Allow me to illustrate what I am talking about.

7D3A5BA8ED474E4994CD9C7092C4C5E4.jpg


There are thousands of Palestinians in that picture, not a "few extremists".

The story reads:

Fatah blames Hamas for Gaza blast - Saturday 24 September 2005

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/781FFD6F-FE31-4B0F-989C-DEA2AE22930E.htm

The Fatah faction of Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas has blamed the resistance group Hamas for the deadly blast at a military parade in Gaza that killed at least 19 people and wounded 80 others.
Did the Palestinians vote for Hamas as the official "resistance group", (sic), for all Palestinians?

Nope.

Did the Palestinian Authority protect Palestinians by not allowing Hamas to have a "military parade" - weapons and all - in the heart of a Palestinian civilian area known as Jabaliya?

Nope.

Was any Hamas leader or organizer arrested for the massacre of 19 Palestinians attending a Hamas "military parade" in the heart of a Palestinian civilian area?

Nope.

What was the response of Hamas to massacring 19 innocent Palestinians at their "military parade"? Well first they blamed Israel:

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told AFP "an Israeli drone fired several rockets at a convoy of cars participating in the parade, creating a large number of martyrs and injured. This is an abominable Israeli crime."

Speaking to Aljazeera, Hamas representative in Beirut Osama Hamdan said tens of Palestinian have seen with their own eyes the Israeli missiles falling down...
Then they shelled Israeli civilians with rockets:

Rockets fired from the Gaza Strip rained down on the town of Sderot in southern Israel early on Saturday wounding five Israelis, Israeli military sources said. No fewer than 21 rockets were fired at Sderot, the sources said, in what was the biggest attack of its kind since the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.
And that Mephisto are the type of people we are talking about. We are not talking about "a few extremists", we are talking about murderous well-organized and well-financed groups of thugs who kill their own people and then lie to the world that Israel did it and then fire rockets at Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with it. And the Palestinian Authority doesn't do a god damn thing about it.
 
I do not portray all Palestinians as criminals. That is impossible and beyond reason. But when 40-90% of the population supports criminal activity like suicide bombings innocent civilians of a neighboring country and terrorizing a neighboring country then unfortunately they suffer the consequences of that support.

Let's examine that. Let's admit that the 50% of the Palestinian population approves the use of violence against the Israeli civilians. This means that half of them believe that this is the way to push Israel to find a solution and half don't.

It makes a lot of sense to me. It might not make sense to those they live in a free country but most of the Palestinians are undereducated and live in camps like prisoners of worse kind. Don't tell me that their condition is Arafat's choice. I know, What we discuss here is why half of them feel that violence is the only way.

Look at it the other way. Those who are in our age ( I am 35 ok you might be younger) have already seen their grandparents dying as slaves. Many of them have victims in their own family and even more have lost somebody they know. ALL of them have experienced the humiliation of imprisonment.

Note something else. Those who commit the suicide attacks ( Hamas) are those that have demonstrated a fair use of the humanitarian aid.Hamas militants are not corrupted and not involved in financial scandals as the official PA used to be. So, the Hamas guys, not only they sacrifice themselves but they care for the suffering population.

This is how they think, zenith-nadir. We cannot keep ignoring their feelings and their needs.

I know the Palestinians are very unhappy about the occupation. So they have two choices, end the occupation via negotiation and non violent means or end the occupation via violent means. To date they have not tried option #1 and that is why they suffer so greatly.
Those who deny the negotiations don't suffer at all. They are the few and privileged. The vast majority is in real suffering and the worse of all is that they feel desperate.
 
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Don't tell me that their condition is Arafat's choice.
I disagree.

Arafat's Billions - Nov. 9, 2003

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml

Yasser Arafat diverted nearly $1 billion in public funds to insure his political survival, but a lot more is unaccounted for. Jim Prince and a team of American accountants - hired by Arafat's own finance ministry - are combing through Arafat's books. Given what they've already uncovered, Arafat may be rethinking the decision. Lesley Stahl reports.

So far, Prince's team has determined that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion --

Although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And, Prince says, none of these dealings were made public.

"Arafat for years would cry poor, saying, 'I can't pay the salaries, we're gonna have a disaster here, the Palestinian economy is going to collapse,'" says Indyk. "And we would all mouth those words: 'The Palestinian economy is going to collapse if we don't do something about this.' But at the same time, he's accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars."

All told, U.S. officials estimate Arafat's personal nest egg at between $1 billion and $3 billion.

Palestinians certainly paid dearly for something else Fayyad uncovered: a system of monopolies in commodities -- like flour and cement -- that Arafat handed out to his cronies, who then turned around and fleeced the public.

Fayyad says it could accurately be seen as gouging his own people. "And especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral, actually."
(emphasis mine.)

So you see Cleo Arafat stole billions from the Palestinians. That's billions with a "B". And while he claimed poverty to the world he stole billions from the mouths of Palestinians. What a guy.. :rolleyes: And to this very day those billions have never been recovered and he's a hero to the Palestinians. Bizzare. So he did contribute to the conditions we now see in Gaza and the West Bank.

Hamas militants are not corrupted and not involved in financial scandals as the official PA used to be. So, the Hamas guys, not only they sacrifice themselves but they care for the suffering population.
I feel the bad Hamas does outweighs the good it may do in your opinion.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/31/HAMAS.TMP

Hamas camp: Sun, fun ... indoctrination - Sunday, July 31, 2005

Seventeen-year-old Osama Abu Asi knows what Hamas stands for: swimming lessons, horseback riding, potato sack races and other summertime fun -- including religious education and paramilitary training.

"In this camp we learn the important things of life -- good behavior, respect," said Osama, who was spending the summer at a Hamas-run camp on the beach outside Gaza City.

They also learn how to sing "intifada songs," including one urging them to "kill Zionists wherever they are, in the name of God."

At one beach camp, attended by approximately 100 kids, an instructor wore a heavy flannel shirt under which a webbed belt could be seen strapped to his stomach. Asked by a reporter what it was, he answered, with a broad smile, "Boom!"

The instructor led a group of young teenagers through marching drills on the sand -- facing movements, close quarter drill. With a smile at the reporter, he put a megaphone to his lips.

"What are you?" he called.

"Monsters!" the kids replied.

"What are you?!"

"MONSTERS!"

As the instructor, Sa'eb Dormush, stepped aside for an interview, a youth in the group shouted out "moqawama!" -- resistance.

"That is the first word they learn when they are born," Dormush said with a laugh. "This is the next generation."
Those who are in our age ( I am 35 ok you might be younger) have already seen their grandparents dying as slaves. Many of them have victims in their own family and even more have lost somebody they know. ALL of them have experienced the humiliation of imprisonment.
All the more reason to make peace with the Israelis and reject the dead end foreign policy of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Before the "Tunisians" arrived the Palestinians were doing lightyears better than after the "Tunisians" arrived...now they live in abysmal poverty, under the sonic booms of Israeli warplanes, thanks to the leadership of Arafat, the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.

The vast majority is in real suffering and the worse of all is that they feel desperate.
Tell me Cleo. Has Israel tried, I mean really tried to make peace with the Palestinians? Or has all those decades of negotiations and peace treaties been an Israeli "trick". I am not trying to be flippant.
 
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