Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[TurkeysGhost]

It's not enough to tell them there are risks. Patients need to be told about all the risks. They also need to be told about all the uncertainties. And we know that they aren't, because all these organizations keep lying about the risks and uncertainties.

You seem to be speaking quite broadly. it's not hard to imagine that individual doctors, clinics, or even larger orgs could be not quite on the mark for these concerns. Are you implying that nobody prescribing these puberty blockers for trans patients are appropriately informing them of their risks?

 

[Myriad]

California’s State Assembly passed legislation, AB957, last month, which would require that parents “affirm” that their children are the opposite sex under penalty of law. “If you have a seven-year-old,” said the bill’s sponsor, California state Assemblymember Lori Wilson, who is “able to articulate that they believe that they are not the same gender as they are biologically, then it should be affirmed.”​

Utter madness! If that same seven year old is "able to articulate that they believe that they are Superman" are you going t let them jump off a ******* hi-rise building?

If the California Senate passes the legislation and Governor Gavin Newsom signs it into law, parents who refuse to affirm their child’s belief that they are the opposite sex could lose custody in a dispute.​

More utter madness.

No way such progressive legislation could ever backfire.

"How strange, for decades parents got more and more willing to let their young kids play and act against stereotypes. Girls playing with toy race cars, boys playing with baby dolls or dress-up, no problem. Now all of a sudden it's 'you're a boy, get a haircut' and 'that toy truck isn't very ladylike' like it's 1950 again. I wonder what could have happened?"

 

[Ziggurat]

You seem to be speaking quite broadly.

Because I see it happening broadly. If there are some providers that give full information, that's not enough.

it's not hard to imagine that individual doctors, clinics, or even larger orgs could be not quite on the mark for these concerns.

I don't have to imagine that. We SEE that. That's actually happening, and it's happening a lot.

Are you implying that nobody prescribing these puberty blockers for trans patients are appropriately informing them of their risks?

Nobody? No, I'm not saying nobody. But again, it's not enough that some providers are detailing all the risks. But providers not giving the full risk picture needs to be the rare exception, not the norm.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay, for a start, I'm not "insisting" on anything. Referring to them correctly is polite, and, well, correct. And it fosters an environment where referring to people correctly is the norm. Framing this as "insisting" is inaccurate.

We have a fundamental disagreement here.

You are insistent that G-Flip's desire to be perceived as non-binary is "correct".

On what basis? In what way is it 'correct'? What do you even mean by 'correct' in this context?

This is entirely a matter of belief - both G-Flips and your own. It is not factual.

G-Flip doesn't want other people to perceive them as being male or female, they want other people to perceive them as being either sexless or a mix of male and female. Well, G-Flip can want whatever they want to want... but their wanting doesn't actually alter the perceptions of other people. Other people will perceive whatever they actually for realsies perceive. And I think almost everyone on the planet, if shown a photo of G-Flip, would perceive them as female (which they are), and in languages with sex-based pronouns, they would use female pronouns in reference to G-Flip.

You insisting that G-Flip's internal beliefs about their view of themself is "correct" gives belief the status of fact.

As a skeptic, I object to this. And as a result of that, I reject your assertion that someone's completely subjective, internal, faith-based belief can be framed as "correct". You could just as easily say that "Allah is the one true god" is "correct" - it carries just as much objective factuality.

 

[Ziggurat]

No way such progressive legislation could ever backfire.

"How strange, for decades parents got more and more willing to let their young kids play and act against stereotypes. Girls playing with toy race cars, boys playing with baby dolls or dress-up, no problem. Now all of a sudden it's 'you're a boy, get a haircut' and 'that toy truck isn't very ladylike' like it's 1950 again. I wonder what could have happened?"

Well, there's another progressive solution to the problem besides enforcing gender stereotypes: simply don't have kids. It's eco-friendly too!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

California’s State Assembly passed legislation, AB957, last month, which would require that parents “affirm” that their children are the opposite sex under penalty of law. “If you have a seven-year-old,” said the bill’s sponsor, California state Assemblymember Lori Wilson, who is “able to articulate that they believe that they are not the same gender as they are biologically, then it should be affirmed.”​

Utter madness! If that same seven year old is "able to articulate that they believe that they are Superman" are you going t let them jump off a ******* hi-rise building?

If the California Senate passes the legislation and Governor Gavin Newsom signs it into law, parents who refuse to affirm their child’s belief that they are the opposite sex could lose custody in a dispute.​

More utter madness.

I can't believe trans acceptance has made custody disputes contentious!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Bzzzt! Wrong!

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/q2icdlh9vqj2437/BarvLine-1.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]


One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?




Bzzzzt! Wrong again

Can you please explain what is being "graphed" here...

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ppqky8rd3zkbxz/basic-bar-graph.png?raw=1[/qimg]

It's still a graph, it's just a different type of graph.

A bar graph is a prevalence graph of unordered categorical information. But it's still a graph.

The other three you showed are line graphs, where the x-axis value is a ordered quantifiable variable.

But they're both graphs. There are a whole lot of different types of graphs, which convey different types of information. But they're all generally considered graphs.

 

[Myriad]

Well, there's another progressive solution to the problem besides enforcing gender stereotypes: simply don't have kids. It's eco-friendly too!

It seems more and more plausible we really are living in Universe 25.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The ACLU has protested the lack of gender-affirming care for Duane Owen, who was executed on Thursday. They tweeted:



For some reason they failed to mention that Owen was convicted of raping and murdering a 14-year-old girl, and then going on to rape and murder another woman two months later, as well as attacking two other women who fortunately survived.

Looking back from this more-enlightened time, we can now see that these acts were just a cry for help, because obviously if someone tells you they are a woman, they must be believed and there's no possibility that they are just trying to get access to more victims.

Honestly, the ACLU has completely lost the plot.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For some reason they failed to mention that Owen was convicted of raping and murdering a 14-year-old girl, and then going on to rape and murder another woman two months later, as well as attacking two other women who fortunately survived.

Looking back from this more-enlightened time, we can now see that these acts were just a cry for help, because obviously if someone tells you they are a woman, they must be believed and there's no possibility that they are just trying to get access to more victims.

Probably because it really has no bearing on the rights of a prisoner to receive adequate medical care. The ACLU was not contesting the conviction, the nature of the crime is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Matthew Best]

Probably because it really has no bearing on the rights of a prisoner to receive adequate medical care. The ACLU was not contesting the conviction, the nature of the crime is entirely irrelevant.

The nature of the crime MAY tell you something about whether the medical care is genuinely needed or just a ruse.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The nature of the crime MAY tell you something about whether the medical care is genuinely needed or just a ruse.

Are trans people incapable of being violent offenders? How can you be so sure it's a ruse?

 

[Matthew Best]

Also, Owen’s claims to “gender dysphoria” were questionable and he never raised issues related to his gender identity during the trial. He never presented as feminine during any of his psychiatric interviews and demonstrated “zero feminine characteristics.”

Maybe he was faking?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's being asserted by some that a bimodal distribution is necessarily ordered. That's not strictly true, it's just that if it isn't ordered, it's not really telling you much. The reason we call them bimodal distributions, despite the fact that the peaks aren't necessarily of the same frequency, is that a bimodal distribution generally reveals the existence of two distinct groups within a population. The peaks will roughly correspond to the modes of these two groups.

In an unordered categorical set of data, the mode will be whichever value occurs most frequently. If two values occur at the same frequency, you have two modes. If you categorize 100 individuals into "male", "female", and "other", and end up with 49, 49, and 2 members respectively, that's then a bimodal distribution, where the modes are "male" and "female".

Make a plot of fruit in children's lunchboxes. There are 2 apples, 3 grapes, 4 bananas, and 5 cherries. Because the data is non-ordinal categorical data, you can put them on the x-axis in whatever order you want - the ordering is arbitrary and meaningless.

If you place them on the x-axis as cherries, grapes, apples, bananas... it will look like you have a bimodal distribution. On the other hand, if you place them as apples, grapes, bananas, cherries, it looks nothing like a bimodal distribution.

If the entire type of distribution changes when you rearrange the variables, it's not bimodal.

It's actually a good parallel to this whole thread. Just because something visually looks like the same shape as a bimodal distribution doesn't mean it actually is a bimodal distribution.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Also, Owen’s claims to “gender dysphoria” were questionable and he never raised issues related to his gender identity during the trial. He never presented as feminine during any of his psychiatric interviews and demonstrated “zero feminine characteristics.”

Maybe he was faking?

Why would gender identity come up at trial? I'm not aware of dysphoria being an acceptable excuse for double murder.

This person was in prison for 3 decades and was incarcerated before there was much public knowledge and any acceptance about transgender people. It's entirely possible this was a sincere request.

Surely prisons know how to safely incarcerate dangerous people who have a history of preying on same sex victims. I imagine death row inmates are already getting a lot of special attention.

 

[Matthew Best]

Why would gender identity come up at trial?

Er, because he claimed he murdered women in order to harvest their hormones, and that he was a transsexual who carried out the attacks to “turn himself into a female.”

 

[Emily's Cat]

You can't treat any classification as a spectrum, because spectrums are definitionally continuous, and classifications are not. But this just begs the question...why do we have to treat sex as categorical? "Because there are only two kinds of gametes" is not a good answer to this question. If we can measure a phenotype at all, we can generate a continuous variable that represents that phenotype. Even Colin Wright doesn't argue against that point. He just thinks we have to classify the phenotypes as male or female first (for whatever reason).

Because sex is not ordinal.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seriously, because I think you're quite a reasonable bloke - do you think anything is actually served by quoting far outlier cases at this point?

It's established that some men will commit acts of extreme violence and cowardly hide behind the facade of transgenderism, but there are also unquestionably huge numbers of people who identify as trans and don't abuse the privilege [?] of women's rights they inherit with their gender change.

After 6 jillion posts in these threads, it's disappointing that an allegedly intelligent group of people discussing the subject has only got further and further from the middle ground as the years have passed. It does neatly mirror the wider backlash against the entire LGBT spectrum, though.

It's the ACLU, FFS. The American Civil Liberties Union is SUING for a multiple rapist not having been provided "gender affirming care" while in prison. And they're suing after the fact.

If we can't discuss the behavior of the goddamned ACLU as an influence on policy... then I don't know what you think qualifies as "worthy of discussion" here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Er, because he claimed he murdered women in order to harvest their hormones, and that he was a transsexual who carried out the attacks to “turn himself into a female.”

I must have missed that citation.

Still sounds a lot like murder and not really that helpful in any case. The bar for an insanity defense is pretty high, it takes more than being delusional. So long as Owen was sane enough to know that murder was morally wrong then they were fit to stand trial, regardless of any other delusional motives.

Whether or not Owen was legitimately experiencing dysphoria does not really matter that much in a murder trial, but would be relevant in how they were medically treated in prison.

 

[Pixel42]

It's not really a counter argument but there is no reason "self-ID" has to mean "I can call myself a trans woman this minute so I can enter this female toilet and abuse a woman, then step out and now call myself a man".

There is no reason at all that self-ID legislation couldn't be like the GRC approach in the UK i.e. require someone to have lived as their new gender for 2 years.

I've never really understood what living as a particular gender even means in a society in which gender based discrimination is illegal.