Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Matthew Best]

14 year olds regularly consent to serious medical procedures. With proper guidance by a doctor, it's ridiculous to pretend it's impossible for an adolescent to take control of their own health.

Are 14-year-olds able to insist on sterilisation (for girls) or vasectomies (for boys)? I ask because I don't know the answer, not because I do know the answer and want to prove something.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are 14-year-olds able to insist on sterilisation (for girls) or vasectomies (for boys)? I ask because I don't know the answer, not because I do know the answer and want to prove something.

Adult women in the US have to pull teeth in order to get sterilized. I can't imagine it's super common for our hypothetical 14 year old.

 

[Chanakya]

Well yeah "What people want to watch" is the biggest factor even in non-professional sports and this thread has to just aggressively ignore that because nothing we're talking about in it matters. It's the giant black hole of how 99% of all society actually functions that is completely gone from discourse.

Get the money, build a stadium, and have any combination of any category of people you want throw the ball around for points. Literally nobody is going to stop you or indeed even really has a way to stop you.

But that's not what we are talking about. We're talking about leagues and tournaments and sponsorships and TV deals and that... needs people who are entertained by it. People who voluntarily choose to be entertained by it, a social interaction outside of talk of rights and tolerance that we have no framework to talk about.

As far as I'm concerned, my vote goes for have two categories, just two, for any and every sport. One, which is a complete free-for-all. Where you can see excellence excel --- excellence in training, excellence in performance, excellence in discipline, but also excellence in happenstance in the form of genetics. ([eta]: like, have Bruce Lee up against Mike Tyson in a cage, to force a cross-discipline example, or the Mountain against that guy whose eyes ended up exploding? Hardcore, no holds barred, as far as the categories. So that when someone says, I'm the #1 in that thing, then that means they actually are the #1 in that thing, at that point in time. [/eta])

And have another category where hot girls/women compete with each other.

Two categories: One to appreciate true excellence. And the other to appreciate true excellence.

 

[JoeMorgue]

IMO, whatever they like/want/need.

There is a colossal amount of social and emotional maturity gained between 14 and 18 years old

Okay but my point is after puberty is complete/started limits your options, isn't that the entire complaint from the trans side?

 

[Samson]

You think it is up to teacher to decide what name to use for a kid?

From that article it is the 14 year old that comes across as reasonable and mature.

Since this is meant to be because of his Christian beliefs I presume he also tells kids with divorced parents that their parents are sinful? Or if they remarried explained that he won't use their new family surname? Or any of the other myriad of sins Christianity has? Or is it just in regards to the trans issue?

Generally atheists in these parts so I separated the nonsensical ethical Christian claims. This child has been allowed a fake life that prevents a yearning for motherhood to be experienced at 3 times her current chronological age.
It is abuse unforgivable by ADULTS. Ever.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are 14-year-olds able to insist on sterilisation (for girls) or vasectomies (for boys)? I ask because I don't know the answer, not because I do know the answer and want to prove something.

It would depend heavily on the reasons for them doing so and other such contexts.

For example, if a girl had a condition in which getting pregnant would always result in serious health problems or death, them deciding to get permanent sterilization seems pretty grounded and reasonable. Likewise if a boy knew that they carried an inheritable and severe genetic disease getting a vasectomy is not that far-fetched an idea. Presumably young people have had to have hysterectomies or other such surgeries for various reasons before, though that's just speculation on my part.

It's not like this is new ground to cover. Children and the issue of informed consent is not an issue exclusive to transgender rights.

 

[smartcooky]

Are any of these topics oven obliquely referenced in the article about the NZ teacher getting fired? No. Ass-pulls it is then.

Let me restate this in case you ignored it

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

Nothing in the articles you cited suggests that gender affirmation treatment increased mental health issues or indicated "regret".

And again

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

Are you actually reading any of these things, or just wishcasting your own conclusions from them?

aaaand again

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

When we see an article about an airliner plunging into the ocean at hundreds of mph, we do not need that article to state that all on board were killed. Our previous experience tells us this would have been the outcome.

This is not "wishcasting" or speculation. It is well known and well understood that the next steps in gender affirming care WILL be puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and a sex change. This is simply a well known fact.

When you finally realize and understand, try again.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's not like this is new ground to cover. Children and the issue of informed consent is not an issue exclusive to transgender rights.

Sure.

The problem is, they're generally NOT giving informed consent, because they're generally not being informed. That's not new, sure, patients have been treated before without informed consent. But we're supposed to be past doing that, and we aren't.

 

[d4m10n]

Ok, on the other "pronoun" thread there are posters who object to the courtesy of addressing other adults as their preferred gender.

There are also people who object to the idea that people ought to be socially or institutionally sanctioned for using pronouns to refer to sex rather than gender. One can use cross-sex pronouns out of politeness and still think other people ought to be free to choose otherwise.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure.

The problem is, they're generally NOT giving informed consent, because they're generally not being informed.

So the critics claim. Reality often falls quite short of this fantasy world where trans affirming medical care is being doled out readily and quickly. Seems the universal complaint of those trying to actually access this care is quite the opposite, where roadblocks and long waits are much more the norm.

 

[Ziggurat]

Adult women in the US have to pull teeth in order to get sterilized. I can't imagine it's super common for our hypothetical 14 year old.

It's super common for 14 year olds who pursue gender transition.

 

[d4m10n]

The problem is, they're generally NOT giving informed consent, because they're generally not being informed.

How can someone who has never experienced orgasm be fully informed about the downside of anorgasmia?

 

[smartcooky]

It would depend heavily on the reasons for them doing so and other such contexts.

For example, if a girl had a condition in which getting pregnant would always result in serious health problems or death, them deciding to get permanent sterilization seems pretty grounded and reasonable. Likewise if a boy knew that they carried an inheritable and severe genetic disease getting a vasectomy is not that far-fetched an idea. Presumably young people have had to have hysterectomies or other such surgeries for various reasons before, though that's just speculation on my part.
It's not like this is new ground to cover. Children and the issue of informed consent is not an issue exclusive to transgender rights.

Are you seeing anything in the article that supports this?

Is there any known history that this is always the reason?

or are you just, what was the word again... oh, that's right... wishcasting?

 

[Ziggurat]

So the critics claim. Reality often falls quite short of this fantasy world where trans affirming medical care is being doled out readily and quickly.

I said nothing about how quick or easily it's happening. I said it was being done without full information. And that's not a fantasy. That's been demonstrated repeatedly. The whole "puberty blockers are reversible" lie that is ubiquitous among providers demonstrates that.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Let me restate this in case you ignored it

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

And again

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

aaaand again

"Exact words do not have to appear in the article for it to be so. We are allowed to apply our own commonsense and read between the lines - its called reading for comprehension.

Both Samson, and I (and frankly, anyone with half a brain in their head) knows what the next logical steps will be for this girl - puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and sex change. "​

When we see an article about an airliner plunging into the ocean at hundreds of mph, we do not need that article to state that all on board were killed. Our previous experience tells us this would have been the outcome.

This is not "wishcasting" or speculation. It is well known and well understood that the next steps in gender affirming care WILL be puberty blockers, chest straps, breast removal and a sex change. This is simply a well known fact.

When you finally realize and understand, try again.

One man's "reading for comprehension" is another's "ass pull". Your name for it is much more flattering I suppose.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you seeing anything in the article that supports this?

Is there any known history that this is always the reason?

or are you just, what was the word again... oh, that's right... wishcasting?

At least I'm honest enough to note when I'm speculating.

My point is quite clear there. The issue with dealing with informed consent with minors is well trodden. It's tricky and nuanced as hell and full of context dependent considerations, but it's still well trod.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I said nothing about how quick or easily it's happening. I said it was being done without full information. And that's not a fantasy. That's been demonstrated repeatedly. The whole "puberty blockers are reversible" lie that is ubiquitous among providers demonstrates that.

Somehow I doubt that many doctors were telling patients that using puberty blockers was risk free.

 

[Ziggurat]

How can someone who has never experienced orgasm be fully informed about the downside of anorgasmia?

They probably can't be. But I don't think they're always even told that this is an issue. I don't recall ever seeing it listed as a possible effect of puberty blockers.

 

[Ziggurat]

Somehow I doubt that many doctors were telling patients that using puberty blockers was risk free.

It's not enough to tell them there are risks. Patients need to be told about all the risks. They also need to be told about all the uncertainties. And we know that they aren't, because all these organizations keep lying about the risks and uncertainties.

 

[d4m10n]

They probably can't be. But I don't think they're always even told that this is an issue. I don't recall ever seeing it listed as a possible effect of puberty blockers.

It's a probable side effect of the early blockers to cross-sex hormones medical pathway. The patient gets to look more like the opposite sex, but at the cost of their own sexual development.

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