Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Blank]

If gender identity is not a mental disorder, then those claiming it suffer no serious harm from being sex-segregated, or being misgendered or deadnamed.

Insulting people is not illegal last I checked (might have some local variations as in protected group status etc.), just don't cry when people respond back. Twitter flamewars happen all the time, gender wars are not the only thing going on.

Trans folks are already protected from discrimination in housing, employment, etc.

Protected from discrimination in some instances does not mean equal rights necessarily - obvious at college sports at the moment. Maintaining a stance that "women are entitled to athletic competitions against equal opposition" basically mean that also all trans women are entitled to the same. But sports is stupid anyway (my opinion but yea)

The only remaining questions are about whether it is a human right to transcend sex segregation, by virtue of asserting a gender identity contrary to your biological sex.

Transgendered people obviously exist and they are not suffering from any mental issues so they are eligible to full protection and equal rights under law. Sex-segregation is a public construct, so basic rights outweigh that and it needs to be constructed to cater to gender identity, not the other way around.

Deadnaming a (non-dysphoric) trans person is no more a human rights violation than using someone's given name instead of their preferred nickname. By analogy to proper names, neither is ignoring someone's preferred pronouns.

Insulting people is still not illegal (might have some local variations as in protected group status etc.) and it can go to harassment/stalking territory when taken to extremes.

 

[Cain]

PRRI did a huge (5000 people) poll of Americans on the question, "Are there only two genders?" and compared it to a 2021 poll of the same question. The result? In virtually every demographic the % of Americans saying yes to the question increased.

Generation Z, the group that Upchurch has such high hopes for? They went from 43% to 57%.

It seems to confirm other polling that says as the topic has been discussed more, fewer people are sympathetic to the arguments of trans activists. This was generally not the case when it came to attitudes toward homosexuality (though support for same-sex marriage was not exactly linear). It's more difficult to sustain accusations of bigotry if Democrats and young people were initially sympathetic to non-binary views.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Never heard sex being an assignment before. .

I hear it involves a lot of homework.

 

[theprestige]

Insulting people is not illegal last I checked (might have some local variations as in protected group status etc.), just don't cry when people respond back.

This discussion would be a lot different if insulting people with pronouns was the beginning and the end of it.

Protected from discrimination in some instances does not mean equal rights necessarily - obvious at college sports at the moment. Maintaining a stance that "women are entitled to athletic competitions against equal opposition" basically mean that also all trans women are entitled to the same. But sports is stupid anyway (my opinion but yea)

Due to the physical disparity between the sexes, equal competition for transwomen is competition against other males.

And saying sports is stupid just replaces misogyny with misanthropy.

Transgendered people obviously exist and they are not suffering from any mental issues so they are eligible to full protection and equal rights under law. Sex-segregation is a public construct, so basic rights outweigh that and it needs to be constructed to cater to gender identity, not the other way around.

Sex segregation is based on the real physical disparity between the two sexes. Gender identity is based on an entirely arbitrary social construct. It has no place in discussions of sex segregation in public policy.

Insulting people is still not illegal (might have some local variations as in protected group status etc.) and it can go to harassment/stalking territory when taken to extremes.

Like sexual predators exploiting fiat self-ID to harass, stalk, abuse, molest, assault, and rape women in their traditional safe spaces?

Let's talk about that problem.

 

[Ziggurat]

Transgendered people obviously exist and they are not suffering from any mental issues

If they have gender dysphoria, then they are. If they don't have gender dysphoria, then why do they need any accommodations

so they are eligible to full protection and equal rights under law.

If a transwoman is treated the same as men, is that not equal protection under the law?

Sex-segregation is a public construct, so basic rights outweigh that

Without a lot more explanation, this doesn't mean anything. I'm not convinced it means anything even with more explanation, but I'll withhold that judgment for the moment.

and it needs to be constructed to cater to gender identity, not the other way around.

This makes no sense. A public policy of limited sex segregation is justifiable, because there are significant and relevant differences between the sexes. These differences lead to compelling state interests which justify some segregation. Gender segregation isn't justifiable as public policy. Gender is badly defined, the differences aren't relevant, and standards of evaluation are basically impossible. The state has no compelling interest in gender.

 

[d4m10n]

Transgender[] people obviously exist and they are not suffering from any mental issues so they are eligible to full protection and equal rights under law. Sex-segregation is a public construct, so basic rights outweigh that and it needs to be constructed to cater to gender identity, not the other way around.

When we are segregating sports leagues and locker rooms, we can choose to do so either by sex (i.e. SRY genes and androgen receptors) or by gender identity (i.e. declaration of one's personal sense of self with respect to gender). An invocation of basic rights cannot solve the problem, because some people believe they have a basic right to compete in sports against their own sex, others believe they have a basic right to compete in sports against their own gender.

 

[Elaedith]

NHS England published an update today on their implementation of the Cass review, following consultation on the interim report.

"We are now going out to targeted stakeholder testing on an interim clinical commissioning policy proposing that, outside of a research setting, puberty suppressing hormones should not be routinely commissioned for children and adolescents who have gender incongruence/dysphoria."

 

[Emily's Cat]

You dodged the question. I have been very patient with your questions, have a tiny bit of courtesy and stand by your offer.

 

[Hercules56]

NHS England published an update today on their implementation of the Cass review, following consultation on the interim report.

"We are now going out to targeted stakeholder testing on an interim clinical commissioning policy proposing that, outside of a research setting, puberty suppressing hormones should not be routinely commissioned for children and adolescents who have gender incongruence/dysphoria."

Bigots!!!!! Filthy genocidal Nazi bigots!!!!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Don't be coy and try to attribute it to someone else to isolate from possible backslash. If you can back it up, go for it.

Don't be coy and just pretend it can't possibly exist because you personally haven't bothered to even look.

Take this as a start:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385
The CEO Of Stonewall had this to say:

Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions. We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly.

Pretty much, if a lesbian is not into penises, and on that basis is not interested in having bepenised transwomen in their dating pool... that's the result of prejudice and we should talk about that prejudice. Seems like Nancy Kelly think lesbians only don't want to have sex with transgender identified males because they're prejudiced. It's bigotry on the part of those lesbians to not be open to the possibility of sex with a person with a penis.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/study-sexual-preferences-transphobia-role-biological-sex/
This touches on the comments from one of the researchers in a study who says:

While the study did not ask participants about their reasons for including or excluding trans persons, the authors speculated that exclusion was likely the result of factors ranging from explicit transprejudice, such as viewing trans persons as unfit, mentally ill, or subhuman, to a lack of understanding or knowledge about what it means to be a transgender man or woman, and therefore, what it would mean to date a trans person.

So instead of the rather straightforward and obvious element of sexuality being associated with sex, they just assume it's all due to prejudice. Yep, once again we see lesbians who don't want to date people with penises being tarred as bigots, along with straight males who don't want to date people with penises, straight females who don't want to date people with vaginas, etc.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What I find endlessly frustrating about the "sex is bimodal" meme is that the promoters of the idea scrupulously avoid labeling their axes with actual quantities, which means we have no way of comparing the meme to an actual chart based on actual data.

Also, sex is a non-ordinal categorical variable. It CANNOT produce a bimodal distribution. It would need to be quantifiably measurable in order to do so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The current Gender thingie basically goes as:

Women with subcategories:

• Cis-women (as in born as a woman)
• Trans woman

Men with subcategories:

• Cis-men
• Trans men

On the other hand, the material reality of sex goes as:

• Males (including transgender identified males)
• Females (including transgender identified females)

Sex is a reality - it is observable and can be objectively verified. Gender is a belief that can never be observed and is entirely subjective and unverifiable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I
Transgendered people obviously exist and they are not suffering from any mental issues...

They are not NECESSARILY suffering from any mental issues.

Gender dysphoria is still considered to be a mental health issue if it causes the individual significant distress. It is still a mental health diagnosis in DSM-5. It is considered a condition, rather than a disorder. But dysphoria absolutely CAN be a mental health issue.

In fact, the distress of dysphoria is the claimed reason for why transgender people NEED medical intervention. They argument is that without cross-sex hormones, without surgery, they suffer significant mental distress, and therefore those treatments are medically necessary in order to treat their diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

If there were no mental health issue, then there would be no need for medical or pharmaceutical intervention. Of course, any individual can obtain those interventions as cosmetic procedures. But not as medical procedures.

Additionally, it is worth noting that Autogynephilia continues to be considered a disorder. It remains a diagnoses under the Transvestic Fetishism grouping of Sexual Paraphilias in the DSM-5. While not all transgender identified people have autogynephilia, some do. Some have been quite open about their own diagnosis.

So off the top, it's false to make the assertion that no transgender people are suffering from mental issues that are directly related to their identities as transgender. Perhaps some are not, but a great many make the claim that they are suffering under severe gender dysphoria in order to justify medical intervention.

Beyond that, a very large number of people who identify as transgender have other mental health issues. Autism and ADHD are significantly overrepresented among transgender identified people. There is also a disproportionate incidence of anxiety disorders, bipolar disorders, and eating disorders. There's a very high rate of pre-existing self-harm disorders in adolescents who identify as transgender.

If we cannot acknowledge the reality of the mental health aspect involved in this topic, we will never be able to provide appropriate and compassionate care.

 

[Hercules56]

If trans women were truly women, they would have been born women.

I'm not saying we should or should not treat them as though they are women.

But it's a scientific fact that they are not women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If trans women were truly women, they would have been born women.

I'm not saying we should or should not treat them as though they are women.
But it's a scientific fact that they are not women.

I think we should treat them as individuals and with respect, and we should not mistreat or harass anyone based on whether they like to wear heels or flats, skirts or trousers, make-up or not.

On the other hand, I do not think we should treat males as if they are females or vice versa. Allowing freedom of expression and presentation is wonderful. Entitling the transgression of sex-based boundaries is not.

 

[Hercules56]

I think we should treat them as individuals and with respect, and we should not mistreat or harass anyone based on whether they like to wear heels or flats, skirts or trousers, make-up or not.

On the other hand, I do not think we should treat males as if they are females or vice versa. Allowing freedom of expression and presentation is wonderful. Entitling the transgression of sex-based boundaries is not.

Meh, I don't care if a trans man wants to use the men's bathroom or locker room. But that's just me.

 

[d4m10n]

Also, sex is a non-ordinal categorical variable. It CANNOT produce a bimodal distribution. It would need to be quantifiably measurable in order to do so.

A sufficiently creative mind might be able to come up with a quantitative variable for the x-axis. Off the top of my head, live gametes produced over a 66 year period would end up being bimodal on a log scale, if you only include subjects which produce at least one.

 

[Samson]

Meh, I don't care if a trans man wants to use the men's bathroom or locker room. But that's just me.

I think your admirable tolerance illuminates the issue.
Men are not physically fearful of women.

 

[smartcooky]

On the other hand, the material reality of sex goes as:

• Males (including transgender identified males)
• Females (including transgender identified females)

Sex is a reality - it is observable and can be objectively verified. Gender is a belief that can never be observed and is entirely subjective and unverifiable.

Indeed.
Despite all the spurious crap that Blank, LondonJohn and their ilk spout about the subject on this forum, the fact remains that...

Human Males (including transwomen) were born with dicks between their legs.
Human Females (including transmen) were born with ***** between their legs.

These are the hard-wired, irrefutable, set-in-stone facts of nature. They can have as many genders and they want to make up, but there are two, and only two sexes, that is all there ever was, and that is all there will ever be. No amount of hand-waving, gender-speak, gobbeldygook or extremist liberal mumbo-jumbo can change these basic facts.

 

[Brainster]

Transgendered people obviously exist....

It's actually quite funny how often we see this "exist" formulation. Indeed one of the most common claims that TRA have in their bag is that somehow we are denying that they exist, which of course would be pretty foolish. They exist and they are human beings, quite obviously.

Of course, what they really mean is that we are denying their self-identified gender and at that point the response is, "No ****, Sherlock."