Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[arthwollipot]

I'm rather bemused by this new class of bigot (or bigot adjacent group if that hair must simply be split) that has arisen based not (always or entirely) on any actual hatred of this group in question but in this overly macho, reflexive, and frankly perplexing reaction to being told to do something.

Like it does generally seem that people are more or at least equally angry that anyone dared to tell them to do something they then are at transgenders.

It's worse. They're not even being told to do something. They're being asked to do something out of politeness and courtesy. And the response is "no, why should I?"

Um, because it's polite? Didn't your mum teach you to be polite? Mine did.

 

[Hercules56]

It's worse. They're not even being told to do something. They're being asked to do something out of politeness and courtesy. And the response is "no, why should I?"

Um, because it's polite? Didn't your mum teach you to be polite? Mine did.

So there are no consequences to using the wrong pronoun? Sure there are.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think the best way to sum up this thread is "people need to grow thicker skin".

Just because somebody called you the wrong pronoun doesn't mean you have to make believe you are a victim of violence.

If it's done once, by accident or ignorance, sure. No problem.

If it is done persistently and deliberately, as a means of denying someone's identity, that's a different story.

I am struggling to understand why this distinction is problematic.

 

[theprestige]

It's worse. They're not even being told to do something. They're being asked to do something out of politeness and courtesy. And the response is "no, why should I?"

Um, because it's polite? Didn't your mum teach you to be polite? Mine did.

I ask you, out of politeness and courtesy, to let me use the pronouns that best match your sex as I perceive it. Will you gainsay my perception? Will you play the" no, why should I?" card?

 

[Samson]

Here is an idea.
Being polite with pronouns between consenting adults was a good thing, but then the politeness got into schools.
This politeness is a proven hazard to youth.
Once again, I am happy to be wrong, which would show there is no danger a confused youth will opt for transitioning when a wonderful life as gay awaits.
The former is life medication and misery to a huge number of them. The latter is as normal a life as society makes it in the west particularly.
I am trying to show my working.
I must be wrong because I am a complete outlier on this thread for mature adults.

 

[mumblethrax]

This politeness is a proven hazard to youth.

How's it going with pulling together some evidence for this?

 

[Shalamar]

I ask you, out of politeness and courtesy, to let me use the pronouns that best match your sex as I perceive it. Will you gainsay my perception? Will you play the" no, why should I?" card?

As long as you accept the 'pronouns' that are assigned to you in return.

 

[lionking]

Wow, there's a log to catch up on in this thread. Let me start here:

I suggest you have a very close look at Science Based Medicine and how misleading they are in this article. They are true TRAs, and that’s fair enough, but do not quote them as an authority. The article has been demolished by experts. I’ll try and find the response.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Thanks for being honest. If you had answered that you were genuinely offended or hurt to call someone the opposite pronoun that you perceived them to be, I'd have to question your sincerity. It'd be a totally alien concept to me, just as transgenderism is actually. But I have to accept that someone MIGHT be deeply offended by being misgendered and it costs me nothing to be polite.

I agree 100% that there has to be reciprocity with politeness. If someone demanded you call them "she" and referred to you as a breeder bitch or some such, I'd have absolutely no sympathy for them.

Not sure what Elliot Page has to do with anything. Being polite or not to someone you aren't interacting with is pretty much meaningless. I think in the context of this thread, we're discussing people with whom you interact with.

Page is simply an exemplar of the role that perception plays in this.

There was a situation in a Starbucks somewhere in the UK fairly recently. An older female was buying coffee and wanted to pay with cash. The employee behind the counter said they don't take cash, only cards. The customer was a bit miffed, but by account of bystanders not really a problem, just complaining a bit about not being allowed to pay by cash while also fishing out their card.

Another employee came around the counter and told the customer to leave. the customer said something along the lines of "I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to her" referencing the cashier with whom they had been talking. The second employee then went on a bit of a tirade calling the customer a transphobe, clapping their hands directly in the customer's face, yelling at them to leave etc. It escalated beyond that and became a bit of a mess.

The salient point here is that the second employee was irate because the cashier identified as "nonbinary". But there's no good way for the customer to know that - the cashier looked female, thus the customer referred to them with female terms. The second employee wasn't offended because the customer was rude or antagonistic - the second employee was irate because the customer did not perceive the cashier's nonbinariness.

In personal interactions, courtesy is generally expected - but it's often not delivered. All of us deal with impolite, discourteous, downright uncivil people all the time. Heck, I've got a coworker who is a braggart and who is rude on a regular basis... but they get the job done and they aren't allowed to talk to customers.

When it comes to pronouns, and other sex-based terminology, however... there has to be some room for perception. I can't see anybody's internal feelings about themselves. If it's obvious that they're really trying, I'll either do what I can while they're present, or they get the same treatment you lot do: Everybody gets to be a "they".

 

[LondonJohn]

I ask you, out of politeness and courtesy, to let me use the pronouns that best match your sex as I perceive it. Will you gainsay my perception? Will you play the" no, why should I?" card?

"I ask you to let me use whatever pronouns I deem appropriate when referring to you. Hope that's OK. Love, theprestige."

 

[theprestige]

As long as you accept the 'pronouns' that are assigned to you in return.

Thank the ever present and all knowing **** that I don't suffer from a debilitating psychological disorder that causes me to be an absolute drag on society the moment someone "mispronouns" me.

 

[lionking]

This isn’t the response (I’m still looking) but this is from a group of experts, not a self-promoter like Steve Novella.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.202200173

While we fully endorse efforts to create a more inclusive environment for gender-diverse people, this does not require denying biological sex. On the contrary, the rejection of biological sex seems to be based on a lack of knowledge about evolution and it champions species chauvinism, inasmuch as it imposes human identity notions on millions of other species. We argue that the biological definition of the sexes remains central to recognising the diversity of life.

 

[LondonJohn]

Page is simply an exemplar of the role that perception plays in this.

There was a situation in a Starbucks somewhere in the UK fairly recently. An older female was buying coffee and wanted to pay with cash. The employee behind the counter said they don't take cash, only cards. The customer was a bit miffed, but by account of bystanders not really a problem, just complaining a bit about not being allowed to pay by cash while also fishing out their card.

Another employee came around the counter and told the customer to leave. the customer said something along the lines of "I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to her" referencing the cashier with whom they had been talking. The second employee then went on a bit of a tirade calling the customer a transphobe, clapping their hands directly in the customer's face, yelling at them to leave etc. It escalated beyond that and became a bit of a mess.

The salient point here is that the second employee was irate because the cashier identified as "nonbinary". But there's no good way for the customer to know that - the cashier looked female, thus the customer referred to them with female terms. The second employee wasn't offended because the customer was rude or antagonistic - the second employee was irate because the customer did not perceive the cashier's nonbinariness.

In personal interactions, courtesy is generally expected - but it's often not delivered. All of us deal with impolite, discourteous, downright uncivil people all the time. Heck, I've got a coworker who is a braggart and who is rude on a regular basis... but they get the job done and they aren't allowed to talk to customers.

When it comes to pronouns, and other sex-based terminology, however... there has to be some room for perception. I can't see anybody's internal feelings about themselves. If it's obvious that they're really trying, I'll either do what I can while they're present, or they get the same treatment you lot do: Everybody gets to be a "they".

Jeez - really?

Nobody, absolutely nobody (in this thread), is talking about single honest mistakes in chance social encounters. We're talking about a person being explicitly requested to use the pronouns of a person's choice (in an environment of not-infrequent social interaction), then deliberately refusing to do so.

Oh and do you have a reliable news reports on this Starbucks incident (including any outcomes)?

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech and not criminalizing simple benign words.

Spoken like someone who didn't spend their childhood being relentlessly and repeatedly bullied by other kids.

 

[theprestige]

Jeez - really?

Nobody, absolutely nobody (in this thread), is talking about single honest mistakes in chance social encounters. We're talking about a person being explicitly requested to use the pronouns of a person's choice (in an environment of not-infrequent social interaction), then deliberately refusing to do so.

Oh and do you have a reliable news reports on this Starbucks incident (including any outcomes)?

Why should a person's preferred pronouns trump an observer's preferred pronouns?

Pronouns are all about the observer, after all.

 

[arthwollipot]

Can we all agree that using the wrong pronoun to describe a transgender person, should never be treated as an assault equal to physical violence?

No.

 

[arthwollipot]

I am not concerned by the thin-skinned snowflakery of the European Union. Hopefully the next generation over there will man up.

This says a lot, really.

 

[theprestige]

No.

Translation: Yes, but don't ask me to defend the counterpoint.

 

[theprestige]

This says a lot, really.

Only in your head.

 

[Shalamar]

Why should a person's preferred pronouns trump an observer's preferred pronouns?

Pronouns are all about the observer, after all.

Which is when I use the ‘pronouns’ snowflake/bigot on people. After all, I observe them being so, and to prevent me from using them on people who ‘insist’ on using ‘observed’ pronouns is a form of oppression.