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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Regardless, we know it was an assault. A crime. One that could, and has for decades, been held to a minimum to a minimum by separating the sexes in certain situations. In fact, an early warning of these types of crimes was a male entering a female only area.

That's the rub. There's huge begging of the question that these inclusive policies increase this kind of crime. Ever since the bathroom panic got trotted out years ago by reactionaries fighting tooth and nail for keeping trans people excluded have not been able to provide any actual evidence (not anecdotes, but evidence) that these policies increase violence in these spaces.

Fights in bathrooms between same sex peers at school are incredibly common. There's no shortage of anecdotes one google search away about fights and other aggression among exclusively cis gendered girls in sex segregated spaces like bathrooms or locker rooms. Cherry picking the ones with trans people involved is not a substitute for actual evidence.
 
3rd/non-gender people are medically and scientifically separate - this is the consensus,

You are seriously confused. Male and female are sexes. There are no third sex, and nobody can change sex. People who identify as transgender are not additional sexes, although those who have dysphoria are unhappy with their sex or sexual characteristics.
If 'gender' is separate from sex and consists of social roles and expectations assigned on the basis of sex, then it is not a medical or scientific concept but a social one. The decision to put people who don't identify with the social expectations associated with their sex into another gender category is not a medical or scientific decision, but an ideological or philosophical one. Just as it would not be a medical or scientific decision if society decided that a male person who is attracted to males can't be a man because society expects men to be attracted to females, therefore they have to be removed and put into a separate category (which would of course be considered regressive).

Perhaps you have read some ideologically motivated rubbish in journals about sex not being binary and mistakenly think this is based on some type of scientific discovery.

they are not mentally ill, they are not somehow sick,
Irrelevant. If society decided that gay males have to be removed from the category 'man' and put into a third gender category, and a psychiatrist subsequently examined these males and concluded they are not mentally ill, it wouldn't demonstrate that they aren't men. That's because the only reason they would not be considered men is based on the social definition of 'man', which is not a medical decision.
BTW, I'm pretty sure that there are many transwomen who would take grave exception to your describing them as being in a different category to adult human females, so assuming that you want to jump on the activist bandwagon, you haven't even got that right. Most transwomen do not want third spaces, although some do.
they are people who do not belong to either female/male category.
No, everyone is either male or female, even virtually everyone with a so-called 'intersex' condition (there might be a quibble about a few extremely rare cases with both types of gonadal tissue, but that has nothing to do with transgender identity). You can change some sexual characteristics, but trans activism says you don't have to do this to count as trans. There is no evidence that a male person who is gender non-conforming or doesn't feel male is somehow different from other biological males in regard to the small number of situations where we have sex segregation, even if it were possible to verify their feelings.
So you are for collective punishment based on belonging to a group? And for limiting rights that are in a modern society attributed to that group with presumption of guilt? And yet giving a pass to the foxes in my analogy?
Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is advocating punishing anybody. Modern trans activism is seeking the replacement of biological sex with gender identity. This is based on postmodern theories that are incompatible with scientific skepticism (that's why they consider it acceptable to decide on an ideologically desirable conclusion first, then construct the 'science' to support the conclusion - since science is just a narrative constructed to serve the oppressor).
Human rights is not about bathroom stalls - if you feel that that is the problem there are several totally viable solutions to that (unisex bathrooms etc etc..)

Pro-sports - not really a issue, private "companies" run these with their own guidelines and divisions and series. I don't see much complaints about any other genetic advantages in sport though I think I laughed at some "white only" - basketball league attempt at some point but not sure if it ever happened.

If you think males do not have advantages in sports over females, then you are advocating the abolition of sex-segregation in sport.
 
3rd/non-gender people are medically and scientifically separate - this is the consensus, they are not mentally ill, they are not somehow sick, they are people who do not belong to either female/male category.
This discussion would be a LOT different if it were actually about humans who are biologically neither male nor female. (Incidentally, no such humans exist, nor can exist.)
 
You are seriously confused. Male and female are sexes. There are no third sex, and nobody can change sex.

Also UNHR seems to disagree with your opinion:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people
While it might not be common it happens.

Beside the point anyway, since "GENDER" is the factor at play.

People who identify as transgender are not additional sexes, although those who have dysphoria are unhappy with their sex or sexual characteristics.
If 'gender' is separate from sex and consists of social roles and expectations assigned on the basis of sex, then it is not a medical or scientific concept but a social one.

Link

One for starters - can you provide anything that supports that it is not with a biological component?

The decision to put people who don't identify with the social expectations associated with their sex into another gender category is not a medical or scientific decision, but an ideological or philosophical one.

Provide proof that "it's a choice"

Just as it would not be a medical or scientific decision if society decided that a male person who is attracted to males can't be a man because society expects men to be attracted to females, therefore they have to be removed and put into a separate category (which would of course be considered regressive).

Wait what? Open this a bit since I don't follow what the point is.

Perhaps you have read some ideologically motivated rubbish in journals about sex not being binary and mistakenly think this is based on some type of scientific discovery.

Enjoy poisoning the well much? "Provide the proof for this, but if it doesn't conform to my prejudices, it's ideological garbage"?

Irrelevant. If society decided that gay males have to be removed from the category 'man' and put into a third gender category, and a psychiatrist subsequently examined these males and concluded they are not mentally ill, it wouldn't demonstrate that they aren't men. That's because the only reason they would not be considered men is based on the social definition of 'man', which is not a medical decision.

Their gender is what they identify as and should be used as the defining factor in day to day instead of assigned sex - this is backed by a SC ruling as I learned today. Any notion of sex is a red-herring.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that there are many transwomen who would take grave exception to your describing them as being in a different category to adult human females, so assuming that you want to jump on the activist bandwagon, you haven't even got that right. Most transwomen do not want third spaces, although some do.

They should be described and referred to as their preferred gender.

No, everyone is either male or female, even virtually everyone with a so-called 'intersex' condition (there might be a quibble about a few extremely rare cases with both types of gonadal tissue, but that has nothing to do with transgender identity).

And who is this extreme arbiter that decides? You? Sorry, I'll leave it to the individual.

You can change some sexual characteristics, but trans activism says you don't have to do this to count as trans. There is no evidence that a male person who is gender non-conforming or doesn't feel male is somehow different from other biological males in regard to the small number of situations where we have sex segregation, even if it were possible to verify their feelings.

And even if there was, it is ideological rubbish?

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is advocating punishing anybody. Modern trans activism is seeking the replacement of biological sex with gender identity. This is based on postmodern theories that are incompatible with scientific skepticism (that's why they consider it acceptable to decide on an ideologically desirable conclusion first, then construct the 'science' to support the conclusion - since science is just a narrative constructed to serve the oppressor).

Aahh.. Rally against science.

If you think males do not have advantages in sports over females, then you are advocating the abolition of sex-segregation in sport.

I'm advocating the legislation and government to STAY out of sports that is operated by either businesses or non-profit organizations and have their own set of objective rules and qualifiers for who can compete in what divisions. If the demand is for swimming competitions for people with under size 10 feet, then fine, make a division for it. If the claim is that women gendered people have the right to competive sports on even grounds, then the same right is extended to all women gendered people that fill that criteria.

All that is required is that the rules in place are logical and non-discriminatory, looking at how long they've tried to get a consistent and clearly defined limits would pretty much counter your point that "it's clear and easy"
 
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This discussion would be a LOT different if it were actually about humans who are biologically neither male nor female. (Incidentally, no such humans exist, nor can exist.)

Care to give an objective definition here? Chromosomes?

Birth assigned sex is not gender
 
Also UNHR seems to disagree with your opinion:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people
While it might not be common it happens.
This discussion would be a LOT different if it were actually about people who were born with ambiguous primary sexual characteristics.

Beside the point anyway, since "GENDER" is the factor at play.
Gender is ABSOLUTELY NOT the factor at play in the segregation of sports, prisons, safe spaces, and (until very recently) inclusive or equitable recognition of the sexes in society.
 
This discussion would be a LOT different if it were actually about people who were born with ambiguous primary sexual characteristics.

What % of population do you draw the line on? I mean I'm really curious on how small of a minority is not entitled to same rights as others? Do you support removal of civil rights of some small minority because there "just isn't that many of them"?

Or are you saying that there are NO people with ambiguous primary sexual characteristics?

Gender is ABSOLUTELY NOT the factor at play in the segregation of sports, prisons, safe spaces, and (until very recently) inclusive or equitable recognition of the sexes in society.

How does 2021 even matter? There has been intersex/trans olympic gold medalists for like 50 years already? It's not recent or new.

If there are safe spaces provided then the state is obligated to offer the same services to all people - not a select group. I'm not going to say how it is provided or done in practice in the US, since that's the problem for people there to organize.
 
Care to give an objective definition here? Chromosomes?
We've got a whole thread about it. I won't belabor the point here.

Birth assigned sex is not gender
Say rather, "sex observed at birth". And no, it isn't gender. That's the whole point: There's an important distinction to be made, between biological sex and social constructs of gender. That distinction is important to recognize, when talking about sex segregation in sports, prisons, etc.

Some of the stuff you're saying seems to ignore that distinction, or equivocate between sex and gender.
 
What % of population do you draw the line on? I mean I'm really curious on how small of a minority is not entitled to same rights as others? Do you support removal of civil rights of some small minority because there "just isn't that many of them"?

Or are you saying that there are NO people with ambiguous primary sexual characteristics?
I'm saying that trans rights activism (TRA) isn't about securing the right to transcend sex segregation for intersex individuals. TRA is about securing the right to transcend sex segregation for any obvious biological male who says they identify as a woman.

Again, this discussion would be very different if it were about what public policies we need to make sure Caster Semenya feels safe and accepted. But it's not. It's about what public policies we need to make sure Jessica Yaniv, Lia Thomas, and Rachel Levine feel safe and accepted.

How does 2021 even matter? There has been intersex/trans olympic gold medalists for like 50 years already? It's not recent or new.

If there are safe spaces provided then the state is obligated to offer the same services to all people - not a select group. I'm not going to say how it is provided or done in practice in the US, since that's the problem for people there to organize.
There are good, safety-based reasons to segregate sports, prisons, and safe spaces on the basis of biological sex.

If you don't agree with this, then we're at an impasse. You will propose public policies that I firmly believe are absolutely destructive to the wellbeing of (biological) women.
 
I'm saying that trans rights activism (TRA) isn't about securing the right to transcend sex segregation for intersex individuals. TRA is about securing the right to transcend sex segregation for any obvious biological male who says they identify as a woman.

As far as I know you are not a spokesperson for the Trans Rights movement and I can only say what they state their purpose to be as it is relevant to my place of residence.

The goal you are stating is not stated by any TRA or Intersex rights movement here so can you provide a source for such a claim?

Again, this discussion would be very different if it were about what public policies we need to make sure Caster Semenya feels safe and accepted. But it's not. It's about what public policies we need to make sure Jessica Yaniv, Lia Thomas, and Rachel Levine feel safe and accepted.

Why do you assign certain individuals with more rights than others? Is Caster Semenya not entitled to feel safe and accepted?

There are good, safety-based reasons to segregate sports, prisons, and safe spaces on the basis of biological sex.

Caster Semenya is a woman, by all definitions you have provided.

If you don't agree with this, then we're at an impasse. You will propose public policies that I firmly believe are absolutely destructive to the wellbeing of (biological) women.

Newsflash - women are fine without your protection. I mean the saviour syndrome is always kinda weird.
 
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No, the analogy is intentionally stupid and contrived to mock an even dumber analogy to drive a point. Analogies are usually inane blatherings with very little to do with reality so it makes about as much sense as the analogy it was responding to.

However the point might be in such a barn where foxes have time after time eaten chickens but raccoons have not yet shown or proven to be a menace - they might or might not prove a danger.. Wouldn't the most logical option in order to truly protect the chickens be, to kick the foxes to the ditch and fill their coops with raccoons?

Then lets not bother with the analogy, let just go straight to the point.

Male on female rape and male on female sexual harassment are a facts of the society we live in. Because society recognizes these facts, it has created safe spaces for females by giving them their own toilets, and changing rooms so that they can feel safe when they are at their most vulnerable (with their pants down around their ankles, or stark naked in the showers).

Now, certain selfish members of Society want to upend all of that, and allow biological males who claim to be females purely on their own say so, enter those female safe space as of right, making those females vulnerable to rape and sexual harassment.

Can one of you advocates for the idea that "transwomen are women" please explain why women need to accept this invasion of their safe spaces by biological males and placing them again in fear in their own safe space?

For mine, if you are born with a cock between your legs, you are a male, you will always be a male (and never a female -any edge cases can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis) regardless of any drugs regimens or surgical procedures you choose to undertake . You are free to, indeed have the right to, play dress-up and cosplay being a woman if that is what rocks your boat, but your rights end at the point where your cosplay impacts on the rights of others.
 
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Also UNHR seems to disagree with your opinion:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people
While it might not be common it happens.
From the perspective of biology, the sexes (human for sure, mammalian quite possible, IANAB) are defined by the type of gamete the organism's body is set up to produce. AFAIK the large majority of even intersex people still have one of those two gamete types even if their organs, chromosomes, etc., are not so clear-cut. Even for a true hermaphrodite whose body produces both types of gametes (which is very rare), there are still only those two types of gametes, there is not a third type of gamete. Someone who produces no gametes does not produce a third type of gamete (as distinct from having an intermediary gonad). There are no gametes that are somehow intermediary between the two types of gametes. AFAIK.
 
From the perspective of biology, the sexes (human for sure, mammalian quite possible, IANAB) are defined by the type of gamete the organism's body is set up to produce. AFAIK the large majority of even intersex people still have one of those two gamete types even if their organs, chromosomes, etc., are not so clear-cut. Even for a true hermaphrodite whose body produces both types of gametes (which is very rare), there are still only those two types of gametes, there is not a third type of gamete. Someone who produces no gametes does not produce a third type of gamete (as distinct from having an intermediary gonad). There are no gametes that are somehow intermediary between the two types of gametes. AFAIK.

And those are very rare edge cases that can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. They are not precedents, and must not be allowed to be used by the pro "transwomen are women" crowd as a cudgel to browbeat the the other 99.99% into giving up their rights.
 
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Also UNHR seems to disagree with your opinion:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people
While it might not be common it happens.
Disorders/differences of sexual development are not additional sexes.
Beside the point anyway, since "GENDER" is the factor at play.
So why bring it up? You seem to flit back and forth between sex and gender in order to obfuscate.
We have known for centuries that lots of people do not fit social gender norms, and we have had decades of activism for the rights of people not to be socially and legally coerced in to gender roles. This has nothing to do with modern trans activism.
Link

One for starters - can you provide anything that supports that it is not with a biological component?
We have been over all of this. Several articles claimed to find that the brains of people who identified as trans (actually, usually only people with gender dysphoria) were shifted towards characteristics of the sex they identified with in regions that show average sex differences. All of these studies failed to control for sexual orientation. All studies that do control for sexual orientation have not replicated these findings. Instead, they find that after controlling for sexual orientation, the differences that distinguish people with gender dysphoria are in the networks related to body ownership and self-perception.


Here is a thread that discusses several studies and gives citations, all of which are more recent than the paper you cited.

Provide proof that "it's a choice"
Provide proof that what is a choice? It is not a medical decision to decide whether terms like 'man' and 'woman' should refer to something regressive and sexist like identification with a gender role. That is an ideological decision.

Wait what? Open this a bit since I don't follow what the point is.
The point is that if people changed the definition of 'man' to 'somebody sexually attracted to females' and then promoted the idea that therefore gay males are not men, that is not a scientific decision, but a social or ideological one. Likewise, if society changes the definition of 'man' to something sexist and regressive like 'somebody who has masculine personality traits' or 'somebody who identifies with the gender role typically assigned to males' or something circular like 'anybody who identifies as a man', that is not a medical decision but a social or ideological one.

The fact that personality traits, gender nonconformity, or even feeling male or female have some biological foundation (like all human traits) is irrelevant.
 
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As far as I know you are not a spokesperson for the Trans Rights movement and I can only say what they state their purpose to be as it is relevant to my place of residence.

Newsflash - women are fine without your protection. I mean the saviour syndrome is always kinda weird.

Newsflash - I am a father. My daughters and granddaughter want me to speak for them, and with them, when their rights are being violated, so you can stick your patronizing attitude where the sun don't shine! OK?

The goal you are stating is not stated by any TRA or Intersex rights movement here so can you provide a source for such a claim?

Wrong

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-people-and-bathroom-access


Why do you assign certain individuals with more rights than others? Is Caster Semenya not entitled to feel safe and accepted?

Caster Semenya is a woman, by all definitions you have provided.

Edge cases should never be used to determine outcomes for the vast majority. They should be treated as what they are, on a case-by-case basis.

Caster Semenya was a very, very unusual case, and had to undergo some very intrusive and strict conditions to be allowed to compete as a woman, so yes, she should be allowed the same rights as women to feel safe in their safe spaces. That doesn't mean that case should be allowed to be used as a prybar to open the door for people like these (who claim to be women purely on their say so) to gain access to women's toilets and changing rooms.

TGW.jpg


Any way you slice it, when you support the right of transgender women to access women safe spaces, you are saying that the above persons should be allowed that access as of right.
 
So why bring it up? You seem to flit back and forth between sex and gender in order to obfuscate.

Because you started to talk about sexes that I responded to being irrelevant.

Stand is simple:
1) Gender identification = individuals gender
2) Individuals gender = possible framework of laws and procedures to be applied so without any objective criteria a person identifying as a woman is legally entitled to the same services and amenties as the framework group
 
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