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Homeopathic Science Fair Project

Anti_Hypeman said:
Has he applied to the Dr. MAS challenge? Maybe he can won the hundred of prizes.
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Dr. MAS is a labour worker. Does a labour worker can afford prizes?

drmas41yk.jpg

He earns his daily wages from labour work.
The man in picture is real Dr. MAS. (pics=whcc cd 85)
 
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Dr. A Sheikh said:
Dr. MAS is a labour worker. Does a labour worker can afford prizes?
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He certainly can afford almost anything if he can actually support any of his claims about homeopathy in JREF's controlled setting. For example, if he can simply distinguish between a homeopathic preparation and the stock solvent, or if he can demonstrate that it makes any detectable difference whether the solution is "sucessed" at each step.

And how did a "labour worker" afford a doctorate?
 
Dr. A Sheikh said:
Dr. MAS is a labour worker. Does a labour worker can afford prizes?

drmas41yk.jpg

He earns his daily wages from labour work.
The man in picture is real Dr. MAS. (pics=whcc cd 85)
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This would be the same man who said he was too old and sick to type is own posts? Right, OK....
Dear Administrator

My name is Arshad. Mas is the part of my name also represents the first letters of my full name, it is also the family name which I belong to, just like Choudhry or Malik or Shah are the common names people use to indicate family background.

I have been running MAS organization for many many years. I am also running many homeopathic, computer and other social associations and organizations.

Being an active member of all homeopathic organizations and chief executive of the club, I cannot write my emails and forum posts myself. My staff is working under me.

This forum does not allow others to operate the account. I request your honour to please allow my assistant to type my mails for me. I am too old now and cannot type my own mails. The procedure if the permission granted would be, I will dictate my posts to my assistant who ever will be on duty at that time in my presence at my office. My assistant will only type the mails for me.

Looking forward to hear sympathatic and positive reply please.

Dr. MAS
Executive Member Dr. MAS organization
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I thought that the labour worker could not type for himself because of pain -- although I don't read much from the MAS collective, so I may be confusing my quacks.


ETA: I see Rolfe beat me to it.
 
Bowser said:
Of course there are no molecules left. It isn't necessary that any be left. And if he didn't succuss in between each dilution he didn't make a homeopathic preparation.

Grade = F
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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, so I'll adress it as if you are attempting to make a point.

My nephew is an 8th grader, with understandabley limited resources. He wasn't attempting to disprove homeopathy. His single experiment tackled the effects of diluting a substance to a 30c dilution. His calculations showed how there is no evidence that a single molecule of a substance would survive such a process.

His conclusion was not that "homeopathy doesn't work", but simply "there is strong evidence to suggest that there is no active ingredient left in a homeopathic solution above 12c dilution".

I spent a long time expaining to him how his single experiment cannot disprove that homeopathic medicine has any effect (but under our current laws of science, his experiment shows that it's very improbable). And we discussed the different ways that a homepathic remedy could be further tested (double-blind studies, etc). He included this additional information in his report and his presentation.

The fact that you admit that there are no molecules left illustrates the point that he reached the correct conclusion in his experiment. Whether the solution needs to be successed between dilutions or the remedy needs to be diluted while saying "abracadabra" doesn't matter one bit. That had nothing to do with his experiment.
 
VespaGuy said:
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, so I'll adress it as if you are attempting to make a point.

My nephew is an 8th grader, with understandabley limited resources. He wasn't attempting to disprove homeopathy. His single experiment tackled the effects of diluting a substance to a 30c dilution. His calculations showed how there is no evidence that a single molecule of a substance would survive such a process.

His conclusion was not that "homeopathy doesn't work", but simply "there is strong evidence to suggest that there is no active ingredient left in a homeopathic solution above 12c dilution".

I spent a long time expaining to him how his single experiment cannot disprove that homeopathic medicine has any effect (but under our current laws of science, his experiment shows that it's very improbable). And we discussed the different ways that a homepathic remedy could be further tested (double-blind studies, etc). He included this additional information in his report and his presentation.

The fact that you admit that there are no molecules left illustrates the point that he reached the correct conclusion in his experiment. Whether the solution needs to be successed between dilutions or the remedy needs to be diluted while saying "abracadabra" doesn't matter one bit. That had nothing to do with his experiment.
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I think Bowser actually believes in homeopathy, so what he meant was that there don't need to be any molecules of the original substance for it to work, but that your nephew didn't succuss properly so that what he made wouldn't be a proper homeopathic remedy, thus wouldn't work. How the thing is supposed to work with no substance or why it matters if you succuss or not are mysteries, and the explanations often use words like energy and vibrations with a meaning unrecognizable to anyone who has studied physics.
 
alfaniner said:
However, I'd caution him against ingesting an entire package of "homeopathic" medicine again. Some over-the-counter products actually contain medications and use "homeopathic" as a buzzword on the label because it sounds good.
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Agreed. I explained to him that "homeopathic" does not necessarily equal "harmless" and discussed how companies may throw the "homeopathic" buzzword on a product that does contain an active ingredient.

I purchased two remedies for him to bring to class. Both were 30c - i forget what the 'active' ingredient was, but one was for "sinus pressue, cold, cough" and the other was for "stage fright" (I told him to include the stage fright one so that he could discuss the fact that many of the ailments that can be 'cured' by homepathy are subjective.)

I didn't expect him to ingest the entire container, but I'm hardly concerned about a 30c dilution.

Which brings up an interesting question (one that has been addressed here before, I'm sure)... if homeopathy did work, wouldn't it be impossible to overdose? Wouldn't takeing two pills instead of one be the same as ''halving" your dosage? The "less=stronger" is certainly a dizzying concept.
 
VespaGuy said:
Which brings up an interesting question (one that has been addressed here before, I'm sure)... if homeopathy did work, wouldn't it be impossible to overdose? Wouldn't takeing two pills instead of one be the same as ''halving" your dosage? The "less=stronger" is certainly a dizzying concept.
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Only if you believe -- as sensible people do, but homeopaths are not presumed to be sensible -- that it's the active ingredient that makes homeopathic remedies effective.

Under certain variations on their bizarre theories, the effectiveness derives not from the ingredients themselves, but from certain magical attributes created by a combination of those ingredients in conjunction with the treatment (e.g. succession, rapping sharply with a leather-bound book, singing "I Gotta Be Me" while wearing lederhosen and bunny slippers). At each successive stage of dilution, although the ingredients are lessened and lessened, the magical "water memory" is actually strengthened. So a 30c pill has only 1/100 of the molecules that a 29c pill has -- but it has 100 times the "magic." Two 30c pills would presumably have twice the magic of a single 30c pill, which would be 200 times the magic of a 29c pill.... and if you get enough "magic," all sort of bad things happen. Look at Disney World.
 
Donks said:
I think Bowser actually believes in homeopathy, so what he meant was that there don't need to be any molecules of the original substance for it to work, but that your nephew didn't succuss properly so that what he made wouldn't be a proper homeopathic remedy, thus wouldn't work. How the thing is supposed to work with no substance or why it matters if you succuss or not are mysteries, and the explanations often use words like energy and vibrations with a meaning unrecognizable to anyone who has studied physics.
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In any case, wasn't it a 30c preparation of food colouring? Have any provings of "foodum colouringum" (or whatever pseudo-latin name they'd give it) been carried out? What does Bowser think a 30c preparation of food colouring would be good for?
 
Donks said:
I think Bowser actually believes in homeopathy, so what he meant was that there don't need to be any molecules of the original substance for it to work, but that your nephew didn't succuss properly so that what he made wouldn't be a proper homeopathic remedy, thus wouldn't work. How the thing is supposed to work with no substance or why it matters if you succuss or not are mysteries, and the explanations often use words like energy and vibrations with a meaning unrecognizable to anyone who has studied physics.
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Thanks.

As I said, whether it works or not was not the point of his project (although his conclusion does question homepathy's scientific merit).

Considering it is a science fair project, he based his reasoning and conclusions on science. Any claims outside the realm of science have no place in his project.
 
drkitten said:
Under certain variations on their bizarre theories, the effectiveness derives not from the ingredients themselves, but from certain magical attributes created by a combination of those ingredients in conjunction with the treatment (e.g. succession, rapping sharply with a leather-bound book, singing "I Gotta Be Me" while wearing lederhosen and bunny slippers).
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That's why we didn't include this in his project - my nephew was very opposed to wearing lederhosen and bunny slippers to school.
 
Mojo said:
In any case, wasn't it a 30c preparation of food colouring? Have any provings of "foodum colouringum" (or whatever pseudo-latin name they'd give it) been carried out? What does Bowser think a 30c preparation of food colouring would be good for?
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Maybe it cures the blue tinge you get from drinking colloidal silver? Or jaundice? Hey, how about asphyxia if you drink 'cyaneus foodum colouringum'?
 
Mojo said:
In any case, wasn't it a 30c preparation of food colouring? Have any provings of "foodum colouringum" (or whatever pseudo-latin name they'd give it) been carried out? What does Bowser think a 30c preparation of food colouring would be good for?
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You can actually dye 10^30 easter eggs with one drop of 30c food coloring.
 
VG, your kid still gets an F because he tried to tie it to homeopathy and but he wasn't creating a homeopathic remedy. All he accomplished was a dilution. No homeopath has ever claimed that a remedy above Avogadro's number has original material left, so that was never in dispute or in need of experimentation. Of course there would be no effect, beneficial or otherwise, to what he produced.

Taking the full package of 30C (whatever a package's worth might be) at one gulp would be considered a single dose. That would not have the impact of taking it as individual doses one at a time for however long the package was supposed to last. I'm glad to hear he's ok. And he sounds like a good kid, and nice of you to take such an interest in him.
 
Bowser said:
No homeopath has ever claimed that a remedy above Avogadro's number has original material left, so that was never in dispute or in need of experimentation.
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Factually inaccurate. See the recent postings by the Mas collective for counterexamples.
 
Bowser said:
Taking the full package of 30C (whatever a package's worth might be) at one gulp would be considered a single dose. That would not have the impact of taking it as individual doses one at a time for however long the package was supposed to last.
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How much time has to pass before it is considered 2 distinct doses? I just inquire because if I ever decide to try suicide by homeopathy, I'd hate to waste a full bottle of blank pills by taking it in 2 hours instead of 121 minutes.
 
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