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Homeopathic Science Fair Project

VespaGuy

Graduate Poster
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
1,034
Hi folks. I'm a long time lurker, and I thought I'd share a story with you for my first post.

I have a 13 year old nephew, Shaun, who lives with his mother. Because he rarely sees his father, I play the role of the 'cool uncle' - taking him to football games, helping with his schoolwork, and hopefully being a positive male role-model.

A while back, he saw my Penn & Teller Bullsh!t DVDs and asked what they were about (at his age I'm sure the profane title peaked his interest). I explained the show to him and he seemed interested. After asking his mother if it was okay for him to watch them (the language is strong, but nothing he doesn't hear daily on the schoolyard), I allowed him to watch a few of the tamer episodes with me. He really enjoyed them. Since then, I notice that he has been applying a touch of critical thinking to some of the things he hears and sees.

He has always struggled in school, and unless he finds a particular subject interesting to him, he tends not to apply himself. So I was very surprised when he called me to help him with his science project. He said that he wanted to do something about 'alternative medicine'.

I told him all about homeopathy - a subject he had heard about when he was younger, when I was dating a woo. Even back then, he was aware that I considered it a bunch of baloney.

Considering the time & resources required to do any type of double-blind study, we decided to simply show that there wasn't any active ingredient left in the homepathic pills. His project was title "Is there any medicine in homepathic medicine?"

His experiment was simple. We started with a container of water and added food coloring (simply for a visual effect). Then we proceeded to dilute the substance to a 30c dilution. At every dilution, my nephew did the calculations to find out what percentage of the original mixture was left in the new dilution. I also explained Avagadro's number to him and showed him how there was a minimal chance that even one molecule of the original mixture was left once you had diluted to 12c.

He really enjoyed the experiment - and considering how much he hates math, he actually had fun calculating the dilutions.

He gave his presentation this past Monday. Many of the other students (8th grade level) had simpler projects such as coloring a white carnation by adding food coloring to it's water. He said that his presentation was by far the most involved. He explained his experiment, avagadro's number, why people belive homeopathy works, double-blind studies, and anecdotal evidence.

Then he said his teacher, who fortunately was not a woo, said that she normally liked to ask questions, but he had left her with nothing to ask. She asked if he had anything else that he wanted to add. He said "yes, I'm so sure that there isn't any ingredients in these pills, that I can eat this whole package without any effect." Before the teacher could say anything, he opened the container of pills and ate them all! (I had previously told him about the "attempted suicide by homeopathy" that I had read about in Skeptical Inquirer, and I guess he thought it would be a nice show-stopper. I had no idea that he was going to do this, though).

Anyhow, his teacher was a bit stunned by his finale, but handed him back his report and said "excellent job".

He got an A+ and was one of the two students from his class chosen to enter the science fair.


Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to share the story.
 
Great! :)
Many of the other students (8th grade level) had simpler projects such as coloring a white carnation by adding food coloring to it's water.
Did any of them try making a coloured carnation white again by watering it with homoeopathic food colouring? :D

And welcome to the forum!
 
A while back, he saw my Penn & Teller Bullsh!t DVDs and asked what they were about (at his age I'm sure the profane title peaked his interest). I explained the show to him and he seemed interested. After asking his mother if it was okay for him to watch them (the language is strong, but nothing he doesn't hear daily on the schoolyard), I allowed him to watch a few of the tamer episodes with me. He really enjoyed them. Since then, I notice that he has been applying a touch of critical thinking to some of the things he hears and sees.

Excellent!

Congratulations to him.

I judge regional science fairs on a regular basis. Perhaps I'll get a chance to see his; this sounds like an exellent and inspriring project.


And since he's going on.... a few questions I'd like to pose to him. (Not at all hostile; the idea is that they're the sort of questions the judge might ask him -- and if he can answer them privately to your satisfaction, he's got canned answers for the judges if necessary.)

His experiment was simple. We started with a container of water and added food coloring (simply for a visual effect). Then we proceeded to dilute the substance to a 30c dilution. At every dilution, my nephew did the calculations to find out what percentage of the original mixture was left in the new dilution. I also explained Avagadro's number to him and showed him how there was a minimal chance that even one molecule of the original mixture was left once you had diluted to 12c.

He really enjoyed the experiment - and considering how much he hates math, he actually had fun calculating the dilutions.

Do the experiments really support the hypothesis that he's trying to test? Has he actually done any sort of test to confirm that there's no difference between a 30c solution and the original tap water? What kind of test could he do if necessary?

His presentation seems to hinge on the concept of Avogadro's number. Where did it come from? Is there any experiment that could be done to confirm how large or small Avogadro's number really is, or does he just have to take your word for it?

How does he know his lab technique is any good? What would happen if he were using something like oil (instead of food dye) that didn't mix well with water -- would his calculations and experiments still work? How could he control for this effect?

As I said, excellent work! Here's hoping he wins at the next level as well....
 
Thanks for the replies...

Excellent!

Congratulations to him.

I judge regional science fairs on a regular basis. Perhaps I'll get a chance to see his; this sounds like an exellent and inspriring project.

And since he's going on.... a few questions I'd like to pose to him. (Not at all hostile; the idea is that they're the sort of questions the judge might ask him -- and if he can answer them privately to your satisfaction, he's got canned answers for the judges if necessary.)

Do the experiments really support the hypothesis that he's trying to test? Has he actually done any sort of test to confirm that there's no difference between a 30c solution and the original tap water? What kind of test could he do if necessary?

His presentation seems to hinge on the concept of Avogadro's number. Where did it come from? Is there any experiment that could be done to confirm how large or small Avogadro's number really is, or does he just have to take your word for it?

How does he know his lab technique is any good? What would happen if he were using something like oil (instead of food dye) that didn't mix well with water -- would his calculations and experiments still work? How could he control for this effect?

As I said, excellent work! Here's hoping he wins at the next level as well....

Well, there is a dissapointing epilogue to the story. Too my dismay, he's not interested in participating in the science fair. I've spent the past few days gently nudging him to just 'try it' (I honestly think he'd do very well considering many of the level of some of the other projects he mentioned), but I haven't had any luck convincing him.

When I was a kid, I loved participating in the annual science fair (and placed second in my school - thank you very much!!). I just don't think he has that 'inner-geek' that I did when I was a kid.

He's a shy kid, and as I stated earlier, he has always struggled in school (he's a solid "C" student). I think that he's a bit frightened of being "judged" and possibly not knowing answers to some of the deeper questions.

As for the questions you raised, thank you. He and I both know that his 'experiment' was not irrefutable proof that homeopathy doesn't work. The food coloring was used to visually show how quickly the solution is dilluted using a 1:100 dilution (by the third dilution, the water was visibly clear). The calculations are really what the experiment was hinged on.

I'm just happy that he was able to take an interest in a subject and really attack it from a critical angle. If I can convince him to give the fair a try, I'll be sure to use your questions to prep him. And of course, I'll let you know how it turns out.
 
Hello VespaGuy,

Excellent job at being a teacher. May you continue to be the Cool Uncle, and may your nephew continue to learn from you.

Moon-spinner
 
1) Build a science fair project.
2) Dilute it in water and shake vigorously.
3) Repeat 2 until the desired dilution is achieved.
 
Hey VespaGuy,

Well done on all your efforts with Shaun. He's lucky to have someone like you as his male role-model.
 
That's completely wonderful. Don't be too dismayed that he didn't keep on to the Science Fair - you've already made a difference.
 
If I can convince him to give the fair a try, I'll be sure to use your questions to prep him.
You could try getting him involved in drkitten's questions as a means of getting him interested in participating in the fair. If he enjoyed presenting his project the first time, and realises that he's still got more to say about it...
 
You could try getting him involved in drkitten's questions as a means of getting him interested in participating in the fair. If he enjoyed presenting his project the first time, and realises that he's still got more to say about it...

One thing I have found helpful in motivating students is to help them realize exactly how much more there can be to say.

The meta-question -- although it can be hard to phrase -- is "now that you've done this cool thing already, how would you do it any differently if you had a chance to redo it to make it even cooler?"

Then you simply point out that, yes, in fact, he has that chance.

ETA: that's kind of why I posted those questions in the first place. If he's worried about not having answers when the judge asks him the "deep" questions.... well, I'm a judge, and those are the deep questions, so I'm kind of cheating by giving him a copy of the test in advance.
 
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I'm just happy that he was able to take an interest in a subject and really attack it from a critical angle. If I can convince him to give the fair a try, I'll be sure to use your questions to prep him. And of course, I'll let you know how it turns out.

Please do.

I think he's a lucky kid, having an uncle like you who's willing to take the time and trouble to help him learn!
 
Congrats to Vespaguy and Shaun. Great Job !!

Would you be able to coax him into making a video/DVD-video of his project
presentation? I'll gladly buy a copy to show it to my child.

Being a young person, he'll appeal to both young person and adults.

Tell him he'll get some extra pocket money. $$$$$ :)

But of course if he is a Science Fair participant and have won something I'll pay a premium. :)
 
Thanks to everyone for their kind words and encouragement.

I'm going to talk to Shaun this weekend and, without pressuring him too much, I'll see if I can bring up the points mentioned here and see what his reaction is. I'm sure he'd be excited to know that folks from a skeptic's forum (including a science fair judge!) are encouraging him, too.

If he does decide to enter the science fair, I'll be sure to video tape it for you, Jyera!
 
However, I'd caution him against ingesting an entire package of "homeopathic" medicine again. Some over-the-counter products actually contain medications and use "homeopathic" as a buzzword on the label because it sounds good.
 
His experiment was simple. We started with a container of water and added food coloring (simply for a visual effect). Then we proceeded to dilute the substance to a 30c dilution. At every dilution, my nephew did the calculations to find out what percentage of the original mixture was left in the new dilution. I also explained Avagadro's number to him and showed him how there was a minimal chance that even one molecule of the original mixture was left once you had diluted to 12c.
Of course there are no molecules left. It isn't necessary that any be left. And if he didn't succuss in between each dilution he didn't make a homeopathic preparation.

Grade = F
 
Of course there are no molecules left. It isn't necessary that any be left.

The flip side of it is that it's not necessary that any given homeopathic preparation actually work. For anything. Beyond placebo effect.

And, oddly enough, they don't. No credible study has ever shown that homeopathic remedies have any effect -- intelligent observers believe this is precisely because they don't have any molecules left.

Grade = F (for the field of homeopathy, and particularly homeopathic ethics, as a whole)

slightly emended because it was misleadingly confusing the way you originally wrote it, Bowser. It might have been read that you were criticising this student's well-planned and thought out experiment, instead of the liars, cheats, quacks, and scumbuckets who defraud sick people by peddling their ineffective snake oil.
 
This thread got me wondering ...

I am not sure how popular this little creature is outside of Germany, but back in 1999 (or so Google says) they had an excellent demonstration of a nuclear chain reaction - using mousetraps and ping pong balls. (I can't find a picture or video-clip. The closest I can get is this. The original experiment would set of two balls per mousetrap.*)

... so I was wondering, if a similar demonstration of the dillution process might be interesting, replacing molecules and liquids with more visible and countable objects instead? (Or use the mto demonstrate things additionally, perhaps)

Rasmus.

* only now do I notice the irony of using mousetraps in that show ....
 
Of course there are no molecules left. It isn't necessary that any be left. And if he didn't succuss in between each dilution he didn't make a homeopathic preparation.
Would it make any practical difference in the end result had he succussed in between each dilution? If yes, can you demonstrate this?
 

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