Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[TurkeysGhost]

As far as I can tell, it's very easy for males to pass as females -
- if they have a starting physiognomic advantage
- and they make a substantial effort to modify their appearance
- and they have favorable lighting conditions
- and they have a friendly (or at least indifferent) audience.

The problem TRAs are running into now is (a) they've created a situation where women are increasingly realizing that they can no longer afford to be indifferent to the prospect of males trying to pass in their safe spaces, and (b) they've deprecated "starting physiognomic advantage" and "substantial effort to modify their appearance" as necessary elements of passing as women.

As far as I can tell, it's the transphobes who are obsessed about who adequately performs their gender. The modern queer rights movement is far more comfortable with people of ambiguously defined or expressed gender presentation.

Policing gendered spaces is an inherently invasive endeavor, and the existence of passing trans people is driving bigots absolutely insane with paranoia.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

PDF available here.

Thanks for the link.

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but even in the best case scenarios it seems there was an error rate in identifying gender of about 5 to 6%. The error rate goes way up with the 3d models, and the paper discusses how small details could be the difference. Seems only fair to speculate that gender cues like clothing, makeup, grooming standards, etc could make a huge difference.

That seems like quite a bit of error compared to the approx 2% of the population that identifies as transgender ( or 5% including nonbinary).

I'm not sure a study of people wearing bald caps is a good proxy for whether the bathroom police can tell a lesbian with short hair and baggy pants is a woman or a man.

 

[Ziggurat]

As far as I can tell, it's the transphobes who are obsessed about who adequately performs their gender. The modern queer rights movement is far more comfortable with people of ambiguously defined or expressed gender presentation.

It's not that simple. A lot of the pro-trans push is coming precisely from people who seem to think that if you're not gender typical, that means that you're the wrong gender. And a lot of the pushback comes from the gender critical folks who think it means jack ****, that biological sex is what matters and nobody should care about "gender expression".

Policing gendered spaces is an inherently invasive endeavor

These are sex segregated spaces. And policing it has become an invasive endeavor because some members of the opposite sex are invading.

and the existence of passing trans people is driving bigots absolutely insane with paranoia.

It's not really the people who are passing that people really care about.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's not that simple. A lot of the pro-trans push is coming precisely from people who seem to think that if you're not gender typical, that means that you're the wrong gender. And a lot of the pushback comes from the gender critical folks who think it means jack ****, that biological sex is what matters and nobody should care about "gender expression".

Is it? Non-binary seems to be a perfectly acceptable identity within the queer community.

These are sex segregated spaces.

That's very much the crux of the issue, isn't it. I wouldn't generalize so freely, there seems to be a lack of consensus as of right now.

It's not really the people who are passing that people really care about.

Who is passing depends on the beholder, as the examples I've shown of cis women being screamed at by bathroom vigilantes have shown. Seems the quality of people's transdar varies quite a bit. For the bigots slavering at the opportunity to shriek at some hated trans person, I imagine there's a bit of cognitive bias towards false positives.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is it? Non-binary seems to be a perfectly acceptable identity within the queer community.

"queer" isn't synonymous with "gender critical". And why would someone who is gender critical care about somebody being "nonbinary"? Go ahead, knock yourself out.

That's very much the crux of the issue, isn't it. I wouldn't generalize so freely, there seems to be a lack of consensus as of right now.

Segregation on the basis of anything other than sex makes no sense and has no justification. And that's true even if you want to allow for some exceptions.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

"queer" isn't synonymous with "gender critical". And why would someone who is gender critical care about somebody being "nonbinary"? Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Considering the examples of butch lesbians being accosted in toilets, I'm assuming non-binary people might face similar collateral damage from the bathroom police.

I don't think these freaks are intentionally accosting cis women, but mistaken identity and friendly fire is bound to happen if they decide bathroom policing is a hill to die on.

 

[Ziggurat]

Considering the examples of butch lesbians being accosted in toilets, I'm assuming non-binary people might face similar collateral damage from the bathroom police.

I don't think these freaks are intentionally accosting cis women, but mistaken identity and friendly fire is bound to happen if they decide bathroom policing is a hill to die on.

As long as the criteria for admittance is self-ID, then effectively the authorities are refusing to police sex segregation. That puts women at risk from sexual predators. When people aren't protected by authorities, they try to protect themselves. And yes, that often causes problems. That often leads to undesirable outcomes. That's why authorities should not abdicate that responsibility. But that is what has happened.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As long as the criteria for admittance is self-ID, then effectively the authorities are refusing to police sex segregation. That puts women at risk from sexual predators. When people aren't protected by authorities, they try to protect themselves. And yes, that often causes problems. That often leads to undesirable outcomes. That's why authorities should not abdicate that responsibility. But that is what has happened.

Evidence for this claim has, historically speaking, been extremely poor.

 

[The Atheist]

There is plenty of research out there that has confirmed that humans are able to identify the sex of other humans with about 99.99% accuracy - from faces alone, with hair removed from the image, with no makeup, and with no clothing or embellishment..

I'm calling bollocks on that.

The "research" I see is from 1993, when trans knew they should stay the hell out of sight and rarely went out in public as their desired gender.

I have a classic example of a friend of mine who is a lesbian and right on six feet tall. She's the least butch lezzer you've ever seen but still gets mistaken for trans by most men who meet her.

I'm confident I could pick a lineup of trans men and women that 99.99% of people would get wrong.

 

[smartcooky]

The bill will prohibit gender-affirming procedures for anyone under the age of 19 and give the state's chief medical officer responsibility for establishing limitations on hormone therapy and puberty blockers for the same age range.

Note in particular that last bit; they are not specifically banning hormone therapy or puberty blockers. All they are banning is "gender-affirming procedures"--i.e., surgeries.

To some extent I can go along with this thinking. The effects of drugs such as puberty blockers are mostly reversible, the effects of getting your junk cut off are not. Teenagers often need to be protected against themselves because fads and peer pressure are real things that happen to them.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As far as I can tell, it's the transphobes who are obsessed about who adequately performs their gender. The modern queer rights movement is far more comfortable with people of ambiguously defined or expressed gender presentation.

Policing gendered spaces is an inherently invasive endeavor, and the existence of passing trans people is driving bigots absolutely insane with paranoia.

This is not about "performing gender". It's about the material reality of sex. These spaces are not "gendered", they're separated on the basis of sex - actual, real, objective sex.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is not about "performing gender". It's about the material reality of sex. These spaces are not "gendered", they're separated on the basis of sex - actual, real, objective sex.

Except in localities where they are, in fact, not segregated by sex, but rather gender.

 

[Elaedith]

Allow women and girls to speak on sex, gender and gender identity without intimidation or fear: UN expert

"Threats and intimidation against women expressing their opinions on sex and sexual orientation is deeply concerning, said Reem Alsalem, the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls in a statement today."

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some positive news: Reem Alsalem, the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls:

I am disturbed by the frequent tactic of smear campaigns against women, girls and their allies on the basis of their beliefs on non-discrimination based on sex and same-sex relations. Branding them as “Nazis,” “genocidaires” or “extremists” is a means of attack and intimidation with the purpose of deterring women from speaking and expressing their views. Such actions are deeply troubling, as they are intended to instill fear in themshame them into silence, and incite violence and hatred against them. Such acts severely affect the dignified participation of women and girls in society.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Allow women and girls to speak on sex, gender and gender identity without intimidation or fear: UN expert

"Threats and intimidation against women expressing their opinions on sex and sexual orientation is deeply concerning, said Reem Alsalem, the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls in a statement today."

This report carry any weight or just a report?

Seems awfully vague regarding these supposed alarming incidents. I suppose you can read whatever you like into that.

Presumably not referencing the TERF rallies where actual nazis are in attendance, because that would be quite deflating for the point being made.

 

[Samson]

This report carry any weight or just a report?

Seems awfully vague regarding these supposed alarming incidents. I suppose you can read whatever you like into that.

Presumably not referencing the TERF rallies where actual nazis are in attendance, because that would be quite deflating for the point being made.

The nazis turn up independently. The way you repeat that misinformation suggests you believe it, so do more homework before repeating it. This lie caused violent acts in Albert Park, Auckland. Repeating the lie will cause more violence.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's very much the crux of the issue, isn't it. I wouldn't generalize so freely, there seems to be a lack of consensus as of right now.

No, there is not a lack of consensus. What there is a small group of highly vocal people who are absolutely insistent that males should have right-of-law to invade females intimate spaces against the will of those females.

Intimate spaces have been separated on the basis of sex for ages. What you are doing is trying to retroactively change the meaning of words so you can pretend to have a reasonable argument.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm calling bollocks on that.

The "research" I see is from 1993, when trans knew they should stay the hell out of sight and rarely went out in public as their desired gender.

I have a classic example of a friend of mine who is a lesbian and right on six feet tall. She's the least butch lezzer you've ever seen but still gets mistaken for trans by most men who meet her.

I'm confident I could pick a lineup of trans men and women that 99.99% of people would get wrong.

Let me get this straight... You're saying that you personally find yourself at a complete loss when you meet people? You can't tell the difference between males and females? It's very confusing for you?

That makes you an outlier among humans.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No, there is not a lack of consensus. What there is a small group of highly vocal people who are absolutely insistent that males should have right-of-law to invade females intimate spaces against the will of those females.

Intimate spaces have been separated on the basis of sex for ages. What you are doing is trying to retroactively change the meaning of words so you can pretend to have a reasonable argument.

I'm talking quite literally about the status of the law right now in various jurisdictions.

Surely you're aware, you've been complaining about it in this very thread. Some places these are not sex segregated spaces, but gender segregated ones.

 

[theprestige]

I have a classic example of a friend of mine who is a lesbian and right on six feet tall. She's the least butch lezzer you've ever seen but still gets mistaken for trans by most men who meet her.

I call shenanigans. You have a lady friend who presents as feminine ("least butch..."), but the majority of men assume she's a dude because she's taller than average? I doubt this very much. Do these men also get confused about Elizabeth Debicki (6'2''), Brooke Shields (6'), and Caitlyn Jenner (6'2''). Do you get confused about these tall women who enter your zone of awareness?

Also, what does her sexual preference have to do with this anecdote?