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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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TurkeysGhost said:
A citation for the common complaint of butch lesbians being mistaken for men by strangers? I'm aware of no such study.
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So you don't know how common it is.

And you are confident that:

There is more than enough variation among the sexes to make trying to identify sexual dimorphism at a glance a very risky proposition.
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Except this is not what studies show eg

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hairstyle, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.
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https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1068/p220131
 
Matthew Best said:
Let's liven it up with some input from the adults in the room, like Nebraska State Senator Machaela Cavanaugh:

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Interesting coincidence I'm sure that anti-trans legislation is riding the same rising tide as anti-abortion legislature, in the case of nebraska in the exact same bill.

Nebraska lawmakers voted on Friday to restrict abortion access after 12 weeks and to ban gender affirming care for trans youth.

The bill, passed by the Nebraska legislature in a 33-15 vote, will head over to Republican Gov. Jim Pillen's desk, where it is expected to be signed into law.
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https://abcnews.go.com/Health/nebraska-lawmakers-pass-bill-restricting-abortion-gender-affirming/story?id=99468867

I suspect this is why TERFism does not seem to be so common in the US as it is in the UK. The anti-trans animus is so obviously linked to the same reactionary policies that are rolling back women's rights that trying to sell TERF ideology here is quite tough.

I'm curious what our women defenders feel about this devil's bargain? Is defending womanhood from trans women worth the cost? From a purely pragmatic, realpolitik point of view, it doesn't seem like you're going to get one without the other in the US. Obviously for the conservatives pushing this stuff it's a win-win.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Interesting coincidence I'm sure that anti-trans legislation is riding the same rising tide as anti-abortion legislature, in the case of [N]ebraska in the exact same bill.
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It's not a coincidence at all. The underlying principle in both cases (the Preborn Child Protection Act and the Let Them Grow Act) is to allow nature to take its course without medical interference or intervention, as one might well expect from activists who believe the world was designed by a beneficent creator.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Much of gender is socially coded by clothing and other such easily changeable factors, and it's quite common in fact for people not following social norms in this regard to be misidentified. Butch lesbians, for example, are frequently misidentified as men.

There is more than enough variation among the sexes to make trying to identify sexual dimorphism at a glance a very risky proposition.

There are probably more cis women with larger than average hands than there are trans women. There are probably more tall and broad shouldered cis women than trans women.

This is exactly the kind of reductionism that is common in transphobic circles that blows back onto cis women. In the interest in policing the female sex, transphobes subject insufficiently feminine (however defined by these weirdos) to suspicion. If you're a cis woman who deviates too much from the average some freak is going to scream at you in a public toilet, you know, for feminism reasons.

You are way overconfident in your ability to tell at a glance, I hope it doesn't lead you to any embarrassing social situations.
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I note that your response is all vagaries. I asked about YOUR ability to identify sexes. You responded with completely impersonal speculative responses.

There is plenty of research out there that has confirmed that humans are able to identify the sex of other humans with about 99.99% accuracy - from faces alone, with hair removed from the image, with no makeup, and with no clothing or embellishment.

Providing an answer based on what you assume would have to be true in order for your premise to hold is not actually an argument. It's imagineering.
 
Wildy said:
Or perhaps I asked because I did look and didn't find anything "well documented" about Thomas throwing that race and was wondering where you got that claim.
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I misread your request, I thought you were asking for evidence that Thomas demolished female records.

In regard to your actual request... it's not possible to prove. Unless Thomas comes forth and makes a statement to that effect, or unless you and I both develop infallible ESP and go talk to Thomas personally.

What we can do, however, is observe their times and their very comfortable lead in prior races. And we can observe that at the end of the race, Thomas was not even breathing heavily. We can also observe that the race in question was one that included a personal friend who was also transgender identified... and that Thomas came in behind the transgender identified female Henig. We can see that Henig's times were consistent with their other swim times, and we can see that Thomas' times were NOT consistent.

We can't know 100% for certain... but it's a pretty plausible inference.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I'm curious what our women defenders feel about this devil's bargain? Is defending womanhood from trans women worth the cost? From a purely pragmatic, realpolitik point of view, it doesn't seem like you're going to get one without the other in the US. Obviously for the conservatives pushing this stuff it's a win-win.
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Definitely seems a bad idea to tie the two (unrelated) things together, but let me point out from your own article what is being prohibited:

The bill will prohibit gender-affirming procedures for anyone under the age of 19 and give the state's chief medical officer responsibility for establishing limitations on hormone therapy and puberty blockers for the same age range.
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Note in particular that last bit; they are not specifically banning hormone therapy or puberty blockers. All they are banning is "gender-affirming procedures"--i.e., surgeries.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
A citation for the common complaint of butch lesbians being mistaken for men by strangers? I'm aware of no such study.
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But you sure feel confident presenting it as if it were 100% solid fact... while simultaneously dismissing out of hand that humans are extremely good at identifying the sex of other humans... which actually DOES have many good studies backing it up.

You're imagineering an assumed reality to support your fallacious premise.
 
Emily's Cat said:
But you sure feel confident presenting it as if it were 100% solid fact... while simultaneously dismissing out of hand that humans are extremely good at identifying the sex of other humans... which actually DOES have many good studies backing it up.

You're imagineering an assumed reality to support your fallacious premise.
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I haven't dismissed anything, the article is paywalled, and the abstract is not specific. I said as much.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I note that your response is all vagaries. I asked about YOUR ability to identify sexes. You responded with completely impersonal speculative responses.

There is plenty of research out there that has confirmed that humans are able to identify the sex of other humans with about 99.99% accuracy - from faces alone, with hair removed from the image, with no makeup, and with no clothing or embellishment.

Providing an answer based on what you assume would have to be true in order for your premise to hold is not actually an argument. It's imagineering.
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Do you frequently see people in public with hair, makeup, clothing, and all embellishment removed?

I guess the multiple examples I've provided of gender misidentification leading to confrontations are the result of unusually poor judgement by those involved. What's your interpretation of what went wrong there?

Good thing these people are only being further emboldened by the anti-trans crusade!
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
Do you frequently see people in public with hair, makeup, clothing, and all embellishment removed?

I guess the multiple examples I've provided of gender misidentification leading to confrontations are the result of unusually poor judgement by those involved. What's your interpretation of what went wrong there?

Good thing these people are only being further emboldened by the anti-trans crusade!
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You presented TWO examples of a person's sex being misidentified.

It's worth noting that this is TWO out of many hundreds, if not thousands, that each person sees when out in public.
 
Emily's Cat said:
You presented TWO examples of a person's sex being misidentified.

It's worth noting that this is TWO out of many hundreds, if not thousands, that each person sees when out in public.
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It's actually 3, but you never responded to the previous example.

You are correct though I have no idea how frequently cis women are being misidentified and accosted by overconfident transphobes. Probably going to happen more with the way the culture is swinging. The most insane people are being emboldened to make their bigotry everyone's problem.
 
As far as I can tell, it's very easy for males to pass as females -
- if they have a starting physiognomic advantage
- and they make a substantial effort to modify their appearance
- and they have favorable lighting conditions
- and they have a friendly (or at least indifferent) audience.

The problem TRAs are running into now is (a) they've created a situation where women are increasingly realizing that they can no longer afford to be indifferent to the prospect of males trying to pass in their safe spaces, and (b) they've deprecated "starting physiognomic advantage" and "substantial effort to modify their appearance" as necessary elements of passing as women.
 
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