Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[TurkeysGhost]

This "gathering data" requirement continues to baffle me. It's another red herring. We have over a century of athletic performance data, across a wide range of sports and sports-adjacent activities. It's yet another excuse to avoid actually discussing public policy solutions to the question of sex segregation.

It's a side issue, but I'm pretty interested in EC's assumption that there are significantly more trans girl athletes than trans boys in K-12 sports. This strikes me as most likely confirmation bias, because much of the reporting on the issue reasonably focuses on trans girls and women and any unfair advantage they might have. That said, that doesn't mean trans boys aren't playing at similar rates without as much attention, especially at the K-12 level.

 

[theprestige]

It's a side issue, but I'm pretty interested in EC's assumption that there are significantly more trans girl athletes than trans boys in K-12 sports. This strikes me as most likely confirmation bias, because much of the reporting on the issue reasonably focuses on trans girls and women and any unfair advantage they might have. That said, that doesn't mean trans boys aren't playing at similar rates without as much attention, especially at the K-12 level.

Red herring.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's a side issue, but I'm pretty interested in EC's assumption that there are significantly more trans girl athletes than trans boys in K-12 sports. This strikes me as most likely confirmation bias, because much of the reporting on the issue reasonably focuses on trans girls and women and any unfair advantage they might have. That said, that doesn't mean trans boys aren't playing at similar rates without as much attention, especially at the K-12 level.

First off, you can drop the K-5 element of that. Prior to puberty it just doesn't matter all that much. Differences still exist, but they're small relative to the magnitude of the differences that develop after the onset of puberty.

So let's stick with 6-12.

You're just gonna roll in here as if we don't have over a century of information on the difference in performance by sex... and you're going to just make an assumption that there are just as many transgender identified females playing on male teams as there are transgender identified males playing on female teams.

Implicit in your assumption is that there is no difference in athletic performance by sex. Or perhaps your assumption is that a person's beliefs about themself can cause a physical transformation of their entire body?

 

[d4m10n]

That said, that doesn't mean trans boys aren't playing at similar rates without as much attention, especially at the K-12 level.

Even if they were playing at similar rates (relative to the participating populations of natal males and females) no one would really care. The athletic advantages of male puberty apply to MtF players, not FtM. So much smoked herring here, I'm going to need some toast and cream cheese.

 

[theprestige]

It's obvious that TRAs have no idea how to square the circle of males competing as females in sports. All they can think of to do is misdirect and pretend ignorance.

Now imagine that same ideology applied to women's prisons and women's shelters.

 

[Samson]

So why not exaggerate.
100's of thousands having major regret.

Oh wait, it's gonna be.
Consider reducing age and barriers to interference to the body in the USA alone.

This intensely credible therapist does just that

https://youtu.be/oDLQD5i5kR8

And they still ain't women. (Or men).

 

[d4m10n]

Now imagine that same ideology applied to women's prisons and women's shelters.

But what about the data? Perhaps a similar number of females are being allowed into male prisons!

 

[LondonJohn]

It's obvious that TRAs have no idea how to square the circle of males competing as females in sports. All they can think of to do is misdirect and pretend ignorance.

Now imagine that same ideology applied to women's prisons and women's shelters.

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

 

[d4m10n]

All non-elite levels are sub-elite.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

Why? I've never heard a good answer. Mostly I've heard "transwomen are women so they should compete as women" but this is just dogma. Sports segregation is based on sex, not gender. And transwomen are not females.

 

[lionking]

Why? I've never heard a good answer. Mostly I've heard "transwomen are women so they should compete as women" but this is just dogma. Sports segregation is based on sex, not gender. And transwomen are not females.

The only answer I’ve seen is that it would make transwomen athletes feel better. It’s at the expense of woman athletes, but that is deemed to not matter.

I wonder if TRAs realise how much sport, even at “sub-elite” level, means to many, many women, who train hard and give their all. Imagine how they feel when blown away by transwomen in second gear. I think their feelings matter a great deal.

 

[Brainster]

Ones in which animus towards trans people generally are the obvious driving motive for passing exclusion laws and fairness in sports is just a useful pretext.

Why do you think nobody, here or anywhere, is railing against transmen competing in male sports? Obvious answer is that there is nothing unfair about it. If someone born a female can compete against the guys after a few rounds of testosterone (within set medical limits), I say go for it!

 

[lionking]

Why do you think nobody, here or anywhere, is railing against transmen competing in male sports? Obvious answer is that there is nothing unfair about it. If someone born a female can compete against the guys after a few rounds of testosterone (within set medical limits), I say go for it!

This, plus the fact that this thread is titled the way it is for a reason. If someone wants to discuss transmen, this is not the thread for it?

 

[Wildy]

Worth pointing out that Thomas threw that race, after having garnered scrutiny for absolutely ******* DEMOLISHING female records with ease.

Do you have a source for that?

I basically agree with you, if you are saying that private organizations (e.g. DV shelters, Korean spas) ought to be allowed to segregate by sex; activists on both sides emphatically do not. They would prefer to write their own approaches into law.

This immediately made me think of Jessica Yaniv and her use of such logic to further her racism.

 

[Lplus]

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

Heard it before and dismissed it as inconsistent - if it's unfair at elite level it's unfair at every level - unless you simply don't care about fairness in competion unless gold medals are at stake....

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why do you think nobody, here or anywhere, is railing against transmen competing in male sports? Obvious answer is that there is nothing unfair about it. If someone born a female can compete against the guys after a few rounds of testosterone (within set medical limits), I say go for it!

I wouldn't say "nobody". Some of these states are also banning trans boys from school sports.

Tennessee, however, as well as Alabama and Texas, go further, also banning trans boys and men from playing on boys and men’s teams.

https://www.si.com/golf-archives/2022/01/25/luc-esquivel-trans-sports-ban-boys-and-mens-teams-daily-cover

 

[d4m10n]

This immediately made me think of Jessica Yaniv and her use of such logic to further her racism.

I don't claim to know whether Yaniv was motivated by racism, misogyny, or the "human right" to be affirmed in her gender. Doesn't actually matter all that much to my analysis; women who perform intimate care on females ought to be allowed to choose their clients based on sex.

ETA: This reminds me of another recurring question in the space of sex-based rights.

Should a female patient be allowed to request a (natal) female doctor to perform cervical screening or other gynecological procedures?

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1658557253161566210

I'm fairly confident that the TWAW crowd will answer this question in the negative, whereas conservatives and most second wave feminists will answer in the affirmative without much hesitation.

ETA2: And now for some hilarious alarmism from the Xn right

https://twitter.com/ChristnNitemare/status/1659224196088569856

Bit surprised to learn that Target is teaching prepubescent boys how to tuck their junk.

 

[theprestige]

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

Fair enough. I don't think it solves the problem in an equitable way, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

How do you believe a transwoman should qualify for transcending sex segregation in sports? Diagnosis? Sefl-ID? Some degree of hormonal or physical transition?

 

[theprestige]

I wouldn't say "nobody". Some of these states are also banning trans boys from school sports.



https://www.si.com/golf-archives/2022/01/25/luc-esquivel-trans-sports-ban-boys-and-mens-teams-daily-cover

Because of the asymmetric physical disparity between men and women, the issue of transmen in mens' sports is largely a self-solving problem, to the degree that it's a problem at all. And to the degree that it's a problem at all, it's solved instantly the moment you solve for the issue of transwomen in womens' sports.

 

[Olmstead]

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

My first question would be why do we have women's categories at non-elite and non-sub-elite levels if they don't matter?