Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[d4m10n]

Competing in segregated sports - professional or not - after puberty has set in is going to be one area that trans folk are going to be excluded from. And that is for either sex and any transition direction. Trans men are likely to be mainly excluded from segregated sports on the bases of having to take certain drugs which are performance enhancers, trans women for both that and safety considerations and yes fairness.

Agreed; however, some student athletes may choose to put off hormonal transition in order to retain athletic eligibility and scholarships. I've actually known someone who did this, but that was way back around the turn of the millennium.

Sports after puberty sets in is one area where there isn't a middle ground or a compromise point if it is a physically based sport then trans folk will be excluded...

Non-contact co-ed intramural or recreational leagues (e.g. softball, pickleball) are a sort of middle ground.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Prepare yourself. I agree 100%.

As I have said countless times in this thread, everyone in this thread and, I believe, the community at large, wish for transwomen and transmen to have fulfilling lives and not be discriminated against in areas like employment, housing and (with caveats) access to government services.

What I object to is where demands of trans activists impact on the rights of women to sex segregated change rooms, sports, prisons and so on. This is not bigoted or transphobic in any way.

Sports are a useful wedge issue for transphobes because it's one area where there's probably some legitimate claims being made. Concerns about fairness are not always bad faith.

I remain pessimistic that any real solution can be found with the well so thoroughly poisoned by animus though. These discussions about sports fairness do not exist in a vacuum.

I would also point out that for school sports, competition for the sake of competition is not the only concern. Many accommodations are frequently made (and demanded by law) in the name of equity and inclusion. School sports are an important social and educational activity and it's entirely reasonable to make concessions that come at the expense of competition. A high school soccer match isn't actually the FIFA world cup and there are very different concerns and stakeholders involved.

 

[lionking]

Sports are a useful wedge issue for transphobes because it's one area where there's probably some legitimate claims being made. Concerns about fairness are always bad faith.

I remain pessimistic that any real solution can be found with the well so thoroughly poisoned by animus though. These discussions about sports fairness do not exist in a vacuum.

I would also point out that for school sports, competition for the sake of competition is not the only concern. Many accommodations are frequently made (and demanded by law) in the name of equity and inclusion. School sports are an important social and educational activity and it's entirely reasonable to make concessions that come at the expense of competition. A high school soccer match isn't actually the FIFA world cup and there are very different concerns and stakeholders involved.

None of which has anything to do with my post.

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems to me this isn't true. Much of the controversy has to do with school sports, for example, which many a non-elite student athletes take part. It's an educational experience, even for those with no future in more elite competition.

At the elementary school level, kids are prepubescent and it doesn't really matter. By the time you hit highschool, though, sports are getting competitive. Athletic scholarships are often on the line. And you're still picking from the upper end of the athletic spectrum, even if that's the top 20% rather than the top 0.1%. The biological differences are huge.

I was under the impression that high PT scores were useful for those seeking advancement and placement into specialty programs, so maxing out your PT score is desirable.

Perhaps for some enlistees. But not across the board. And for those to whom it does matter, if they were maxing out their scores as a male (which isn't that hard to do if you prioritize it), then they can max out their scores as a female even with a huge drop in performance. The point is, these aren't athletes, and they aren't training as athletes. We should not extrapolate these results to competitive athletic performance.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sports are a useful wedge issue for transphobes because it's one area where there's probably some legitimate claims being made. Concerns about fairness are always bad faith.

Dismissing arguments irrespective of their merit because you label them as coming from "transphobes" is bad faith.

I remain pessimistic that any real solution can be found with the well so thoroughly poisoned by animus though. These discussions about sports fairness do not exist in a vacuum.

Translation: you will gladly sacrifice the interests of female athletes in pursuit of some vague greater good.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Dismissing arguments irrespective of their merit because you label them as coming from "transphobes" is bad faith.



Translation: you will gladly sacrifice the interests of female athletes in pursuit of some vague greater good.

yikes, I really stepped in it that time. I meant to say concerns about fairness are not always bad faith. luckily still in the edit period.

 

[theprestige]

Sports are a useful wedge issue for transphobes because it's one area where there's probably some legitimate claims being made. Concerns about fairness are always bad faith.

I remain pessimistic that any real solution can be found with the well so thoroughly poisoned by animus though. These discussions about sports fairness do not exist in a vacuum.

I would also point out that for school sports, competition for the sake of competition is not the only concern. Many accommodations are frequently made (and demanded by law) in the name of equity and inclusion. School sports are an important social and educational activity and it's entirely reasonable to make concessions that come at the expense of competition. A high school soccer match isn't actually the FIFA world cup and there are very different concerns and stakeholders involved.

Sports, prisons, battered womens' shelters... These are places where it is obvious that men are not and cannot be women.

Transgenderism as transcending sex segregation is legitimately objectionable, as you acknowledge.

Remove that stipulation, and transgenderism becomes virtually meaningless in public policy. Because gender, divorced from biological sex, is virtually meaningless.

But one won't remove that stipulation, mostly because transgenderism as transsexualism is exactly the TRA agenda. Access to safe spaces for females, by fiat self-ID, is the TRA endgame. So one come up with excuses not to address it. One tries to pretend it's the other side's fault that one can't come up with any solution. One tells oneself and the rest of us that it's our bad attitude that gets under one's skin and prevents one from doing what one knows is the right thing to do.

But also one won't remove the transsexual stipulation because without that stipulation, there's no work left to do in public policy. It is already established as a matter of law that people can't be discriminated against on account of their "gender". A dude wearing a frock is already entitled by law to all the same privileges in housing and employment and elsewhere as a dude wearing a pair of pantaloons joined by a codpiece.

Take away the issue of sex segregation, and the matter of transgender rights is already solved in public policy.

Tell me I'm wrong. Give me an example of a transgender discrimination that is unjust, permitted by law, but not actually an example of transsexual discrimination. If you can find one, I will join you in advocating to have it addressed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

At the elementary school level, kids are prepubescent and it doesn't really matter. By the time you hit highschool, though, sports are getting competitive. Athletic scholarships are often on the line. And you're still picking from the upper end of the athletic spectrum, even if that's the top 20% rather than the top 0.1%. The biological differences are huge.

More often scholarships are not on the line. Plenty of students participate in organized school sports with no illusions about it paying off in any material way. Extracurricular activities, including competitive ones, are popular for reasons beyond material gain.

 

[Ziggurat]

More often scholarships are not on the line. Plenty of students participate in organized school sports with no illusions about it paying off in any material way. Extracurricular activities, including competitive ones, are popular for reasons beyond material gain.

They will still lose that popularity when they are viewed as being fundamentally unfair. Which they are when you allow males to compete against females after puberty.

 

[The Atheist]

Sports, prisons, battered womens' shelters... These are places where it is obvious that men are not and cannot be women.

Short sighted and wrong.

Someone like Andreja Pejic, who is biologically still male, but has had gender reassignment surgery, could not and should not be sent to a men's prison if she broke the law.

It all goes back to legitimate trans women and fakers. Sadly, the trans lobby don't want to conceded the fakers exist.

 

[lionking]

Short sighted and wrong.

Someone like Andreja Pejic, who is biologically still male, but has had gender reassignment surgery, could not and should not be sent to a men's prison if she broke the law.

It all goes back to legitimate trans women and fakers. Sadly, the trans lobby don't want to conceded the fakers exist.

You have come up with one of the exceptions that prove the rule. The vast majority of transwomen do not have gender reassignment surgery and have intact and functioning penises.

But yes, exceptions like Pejic should be accommodated with women. The vast majority should not.

 

[Aber]

. I meant to say concerns about fairness are not always bad faith.

So which concerns about fairness in sports are bad faith?

 

[Darat]

You have come up with one of the exceptions that prove the rule. The vast majority of transwomen do not have gender reassignment surgery and have intact and functioning penises.

But yes, exceptions like Pejic should be accommodated with women. The vast majority should not.

But it does demonstrate that we shouldn't try to have simple, one rule fits all approaches to complex situations.

For example, I can't see why a refuge for women who are victims of domestic abuse shouldn't be able to take in a trans woman if they judge their circumstances to be suitable for their services. That should be down to the providers. As another example, with trans prisoners we should be looking at both the risk they have from inmates and of course the risk they are to inmates rather than again having a one rule fits all. And this should really be part of our standards for prisons regardless of sex or gender, sadly safety and wellbeing of prisoners is often low down on the priorities in prisons. Where I think you can have straightforward rules is in specific circumstances so a trans woman who has sexually assaulted women in any way should never be in the general population of a women's prison, whether they have a gender reassignment certificate or not.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So which concerns about fairness in sports are bad faith?

Ones in which animus towards trans people generally are the obvious driving motive for passing exclusion laws and fairness in sports is just a useful pretext.

 

[lionking]

Where I think you can have straightforward rules is in specific circumstances so a trans woman who has sexually assaulted women in any way should never be in the general population of a women's prison, whether they have a gender reassignment certificate or not.

I do not agree. A self identified transwoman with a functioning penis will always, in my view, be a threat to women inmates. They should be imprisoned elsewhere, regardless of their wishes. Whether that is with others of their same sex or in a transwomen only division is up to prison management.

 

[lionking]

Ones in which animus towards trans people generally are the obvious driving motive for passing exclusion laws and fairness in sports is just a useful pretext.

Take this up with women athletes who have been beaten comfortably by transwomen and have had their dreams, objectives and even livelihoods destroyed by the likes of Lia Thomas and the growing number of unfairly attributed transwomen atheltes.

 

[d4m10n]

For example, I can't see why a refuge for women who are victims of domestic abuse shouldn't be able to take in a trans woman if they judge their circumstances to be suitable for their services. That should be down to the providers.

So far as I can tell, every trans advocacy organization in existence disagrees with this approach. They would much prefer that government mandate gender inclusion in lieu of sex segregation.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Take this up with women athletes who have been beaten comfortably by transwomen and have had their dreams, objectives and even livelihoods destroyed by the likes of Lia Thomas and the growing number of unfairly attributed transwomen atheltes.

Worth pointing out that the cis woman making a big fuss about Lia Thomas tied with her in fifth place. Both were beat by cis women.

never has being a fifth place finisher been such a boon to clout.

 

[Darat]

So far as I can tell, every trans advocacy organization in existence disagrees with this approach. They would much prefer that government mandate gender inclusion in lieu of sex segregation.

I presume you are making a point about your own opinion but I'm not getting it.

 

[lionking]

Worth pointing out that the cis woman making a big fuss about Lia Thomas tied with her in fifth place. Both were beat by cis women.

never has being a fifth place finisher been such a boon to clout.

As expected, ignoring all the victories Thomas racked up denying women places in representative teams. Now tell me, how victorious was Thomas when competing with those of his sex?

Also, any comments on Thomas’ claims to be a lesbian as they have a girlfriend?