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Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

No, it passed because it wasn't an outright rejection of evolution, but rather a "reappraisal of certain aspects of evolution". From here:
https://www.nature.com/articles/431114a

Sounds like this was a deliberate attempt to sneak something - anything - into the legitimate scientific literature, however distantly or tangentially related to their discredited hypothesis, which could then be pointed to as justification to then sneak that hypothesis onto the school curriculum. A cynical "wolf in sheep's clothing" attempt to use science's own openness and honesty against it.

There are many words I could use to describe that, but science isn't one of them.
 
So why the big deal about the correct claim that ID articles have passed peer review??? The ID theory is wrong AND articles promoting ID have passed peer review. Both things can be true. It's science in action.


That low level journal either did not review... or venally reviewed the paper... and I wonder how much money they got for it?

Also....

Would you say the same about a Flat Earth article if its writers managed to hoodwink or purchase venal scientists to publish their article about how Flat Earth is a valid scientific theory?

Come on... would you even for a second congratulate the bamboozled "journal" for being brave to publish the Flat Earth article???

I challenge you to answer the above question.... I will bet anything you will not answer.
 
Anyway, I've never claimed that passing peer review means being supported by overwhelming scientific evidence. In fact, I've said the opposite. This is what I wrote on the last page to acbytesla


And this is what I said about what you said....

And...

Even if it is all legitimate... as usual... the risible irony of apologetics....

Do you think some christian scientist eg. Francis Collins publishing a paper about the human genome project and having it peer approved has any relationship whatsoever to his christian views?

Did the peer review process review his views on Jesus' resurrection and approve that by approving his human genome paper??

What do you think of a christian apologist who harps on and on about Francis Collins having had peer reviewed papers in a discussion about Jesus' resurrection and tells us that Jesus' resurrection is science because Francis Collins has had science papers peer reviewed and published???


And of course... you will never answer the above questions either... I will bet!!
 
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So why the big deal about the correct claim that ID articles have passed peer review??? The ID theory is wrong AND articles promoting ID have passed peer review. Both things can be true. It's science in action.
The GLARING ERROR HERE is conflating irreducible complexity with Intelligent Design for starters. ID articles have NOT passed peer review. Find one that specifically has.

Anyway, I've never claimed that passing peer review means being supported by overwhelming scientific evidence. In fact, I've said the opposite. This is what I wrote on the last page to acbytesla
But you have conflated ID with IC.
 
Sounds like this was a deliberate attempt to sneak something - anything - into the legitimate scientific literature, however distantly or tangentially related to their discredited hypothesis, which could then be pointed to as justification to then sneak that hypothesis onto the school curriculum. A cynical "wolf in sheep's clothing" attempt to use science's own openness and honesty against it.

There are many words I could use to describe that, but science isn't one of them.
Yes, that is in fact science. I agree that you may well be right about their motives, but building a body of peer reviewed work in order to overturn an established consensus is exactly how science works. Biased people can be right, and unbiased people can be wrong. The motives don't matter, only results.

Looks like I'm the only one here actually standing up for science! :boxedin:
 
The GLARING ERROR HERE is conflating irreducible complexity with Intelligent Design for starters. ID articles have NOT passed peer review. Find one that specifically has.
The one I gave earlier on this page. Here it is:
https://www.nature.com/articles/431114a

Peer-reviewed paper defends theory of intelligent design
...
A scientific journal has published a paper that argues in favour of intelligent design — the first time such material has appeared in a peer-reviewed publication, according to biologists who track the issue. The paper appeared in a low-impact journal, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. But critics say that it could still be used by advocates of intelligent design to get the subject on to US school curricula (see Nature 416, 250; 2002).
...
Meyer's article has attracted a lengthy rebuttal on The Panda's Thumb, a website devoted to evolutionary theory. But Miller says that, despite criticism of the journal, versions of the theory will find their way into the scientific literature at some point. Arguments for it can be written, he says, as reappraisals of certain aspects of evolution rather than outright rejection. “Peer review isn't a guarantee of accuracy,” he adds. “That is especially true of review articles.”
 
I'm not. I'm just making the correct claim that some ID articles have passed peer review, and that is a credit to science. The worst thing for science would be to reject an idea simply because it disagreed with the scientific consensus. That would be anti-science.

No they haven't. Some scientific papers have passed peer review, some people claim that those paper support ID, that is very different to saying ID articles have passed peer review. And because of what we learnt at the Dover trial (many of us had learned about it before that but the Dover trial put it on the record under oath) we now even know from the people behind ID that it was never a scientific hypothesis, it was simply creationism with the word God replaced with ID. ID was never science it was theology.
 
Yes, that is in fact science. I agree that you may well be right about their motives, but building a body of peer reviewed work in order to overturn an established consensus is exactly how science works.
But that's not what they are doing. The hypothesis they're trying to get accepted in place of that consensus has already been thoroughly discredited. Using underhand techniques to keep a discredited hypothesis in play is emphatically not science. It's the exact opposite of science.

Biased people can be right, and unbiased people can be wrong. The motives don't matter, only results.
And the result here is that the general public is wrongly persuaded that a discredited hypothesis is plausible, and should be taught to their children. To detract from, not add to, humanity's knowledge and understanding of how the world really works. Again, the exact opposite of science.

Looks like I'm the only one here actually standing up for science! :boxedin:

No, you're the only one applauding pseudoscientists attempts to get their pseudoscience taught in schools.
 
There is a Sesame Street Christams special where someone (Elmo maybe?) wishes it was Christmas every day, and his wish comes true. They cut to a year later, and everyone is like, "It's Christmas again. Yay." in the most unhappy way possible.

See, even Sesame Street realizes that a "happy day every day" gets boring.

Even heaven would end up being torturous, an afterlife a nightmare. Death as an end is the kindest way.
 
Yes, that is in fact science. I agree that you may well be right about their motives, but building a body of peer reviewed work in order to overturn an established consensus is exactly how science works. Biased people can be right, and unbiased people can be wrong. The motives don't matter, only results.

Looks like I'm the only one here actually standing up for science! :boxedin:


:sdl: Of course you might think that because it is evident you have no idea what science is nor what scientific consensus is nor what scientific peer review is... as I have shown here and here and here.

And of course as displayed in the statement below...

... but building a body of peer reviewed work in order to overturn an established consensus is exactly how science works.


Which also obliviously admits the AGENDA of Imbecilic Design and creationists and the Hawkers for Jesus.


Hint: that is not at all how science works... not at all!!!
 
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Even heaven would end up being torturous, an afterlife a nightmare. Death as an end is the kindest way.
Speaking of an afterlife, I recall the hilarious South Park episode where it turned out the Mormons had it right and making macaroni pictures was something people could look forward to after death.

It reminds of so many movies and stories where one lives 'happily ever after' but that is never defined or even described.

So for any of you here that believe in an afterlife, have you thought those details out?
 
Here is a hawker for Jesus (a convicted criminal) trying to warp logic and contort rationality by EQUIVOCATING rationality with irrationality in order to rationalize his irrational baseless blind faith in life after death.

 
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GDon said:
I'm not. I'm just making the correct claim that some ID articles have passed peer review, and that is a credit to science. The worst thing for science would be to reject an idea simply because it disagreed with the scientific consensus. That would be anti-science.
No they haven't. Some scientific papers have passed peer review, some people claim that those paper support ID, that is very different to saying ID articles have passed peer review.
It's not very different. Showing the validity of a new hypothesis by building a body of work through peer review is how the scientific consensus gets changed. ID proponents are going through that process. Who knows? Maybe their views will gain traction in the scientific community. Currently there is no evidence for the validity of the ID hypothesis, but let them keep trying. That's what science is all about.

And because of what we learnt at the Dover trial (many of us had learned about it before that but the Dover trial put it on the record under oath) we now even know from the people behind ID that it was never a scientific hypothesis, it was simply creationism with the word God replaced with ID. ID was never science it was theology.
Creationism is theology. Anything that has "God can do X", whether from an atheist or theist, is theology, ID is a failed hypothesis. It has been examined by science and found wanting. Some elements have passed peer review, which doesn't mean that the hypothesis itself is valid.
 
It's not very different. Showing the validity of a new hypothesis by building a body of work through peer review is how the scientific consensus gets changed.


The validity of scientific hypotheses is not established by MAJORITY OPINION... you are equivocating science with religion again.

You are yet again demonstrating that you have no idea what science or scientific consensus is... also see here and here and here and here.



ID proponents are going through that process.


Exactly... if they buy enough venal journals and editors and scientists they might collect enough prostitutes to repeat the lies they paid them to say... but science is not established by how many prostitutes tell lies for their clients.


Who knows? Maybe their views will gain traction in the scientific community. Currently there is no evidence for the validity of the ID hypothesis, but let them keep trying. That's what science is all about.


:dl:

Hint: that is not what science is about... science would have declared god long ago if all it takes is enough money to say so.


Creationism is theology. Anything that has "God can do X", whether from an atheist or theist, is theology,


Correct... and Imbecilic Design says exactly that... so it is creationism... good on you for admitting it.


ID is a failed hypothesis. It has been examined by science and found wanting.


It was not found "wanting" it was found FRAUDULENT and to be nothing but creationism in disguise.


Some elements have passed peer review,


No they have not... that is like saying the Higgs Boson is a step towards proving God because the writer of the paper kept calling it the God Particle in the paper and it passed peer review.


which doesn't mean that the hypothesis itself is valid.


It is invalid... any scientist who is not a religious hypocrite would tell you that creationism (i.e. Imbecilic Design) is not science and is not true.

And I am still winning the bet that you will never ever answer the questions below

Would you say the same about a Flat Earth article if its writers managed to hoodwink or purchase venal scientists to publish their article about how Flat Earth is a valid scientific theory?

Come on... would you even for a second congratulate the bamboozled "journal" for being brave to publish the Flat Earth article???

I challenge you to answer the above question.... I will bet anything you will not answer.
Do you think some christian scientist eg. Francis Collins publishing a paper about the human genome project and having it peer approved has any relationship whatsoever to his christian views?

Did the peer review process review his views on Jesus' resurrection and approve that by approving his human genome paper??

What do you think of a christian apologist who harps on and on about Francis Collins having had peer reviewed papers in a discussion about Jesus' resurrection and tells us that Jesus' resurrection is science because Francis Collins has had science papers peer reviewed and published???
 
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GDon said:
... but building a body of peer reviewed work in order to overturn an established consensus ...
:dl:
??? :confused: What's wrong with what I'd said? Isn't that how the scientific consensus gets changed? Or am I wrong? I can't imagine that you think that building a body of peer reviewed work isn't important in overturning an established consensus.

Science is self-correcting, what is the self-correcting mechanism? Isn't peer reviewed publications one of the methods? Please let me know if you think it is not one of the methods.

Here is an article about peer review:

https://undsci.berkeley.edu/underst...ience-works/scrutinizing-science-peer-review/

Peer-reviewed work isn’t necessarily correct or conclusive, but it does meet the standards of science. And that means that once a piece of scientific research passes through peer review and is published, science must deal with it somehow — perhaps by incorporating it into the established body of scientific knowledge, building on it further, figuring out why it is wrong, or trying to replicate its results.

I think you are assuming that I believe that ID proponents have done this? They have not, as I have repeatedly said. But introducing their ideas into the scientific community via peer reviewed publications is the right way to go about it -- unless you think that isn't the right way to go about it? Let me know.
 
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Didn’t want to keep on with the piling on, Thermal; but since you posted that detailed response, maybe just one more post from me won’t hurt:


It is an obvious and glaring error in reasoning. Just not the one you think it is, nor is it on my part. We'll flesh it out below.



No, because you are making the same obvious, glaring error of reasoning the others are.

I have said, and repeatedly, that I think a god would be incomprehensible. Why do you add on undetectable to that? I mean, seriously. You genuinely can't conceive of detecting something you don't/can't comprehend?


But you’re the one who specifically spoke of the creator not leaving “breadcrumbs”, in the post that I’d quoted and responded to. Surely “breadcrumbs” refers directly to a trail of evidence --- or, in this case, its lack, and which is specifically what Carl Sagan’s dragon is about? (And which is why I posted that response of mine.) At least in that post, the one about not leaving breadcrumbs, the one I’d quoted, you’d clearly been speaking specifically of the creator’s undetectability, rather than its incomprehensibility, isn’t it?


So the question logically extends to "why don't we see any evidence?", which is countered with "where would you reasonably look?" A creator of time and space (phrased that way for the sake of argument), would not be...inside...that time and space, to my reasoning. And that's the only way we currently know how to detect things.

We are hanging out on a rock orbiting a medium sized star in the unfashionable Western arm of a typical galaxy. You would expect to find a god hanging out here with us? He would even fit anywhere within our current observational abilities? Serious question: why would you expect a universal creating thing to be even visible inside our observable universe? You think, as one of our colleagues does, that he should be expected to be just like a beer can in the fridge?


But, and to repeat what I’d said, if some thing does not impact the universe at all, and leaves zero evidence, then what it does it even mean to say that it exists? Isn’t that the exact same thing, from our perspective, as the thing not existing at all?

And, in any case, what about about the creator of that creator, which following your reasoning would need to exist beyond that creator’s universe? And what of the creator-of-the-creator-of-the-creator, than would, again, necessarily need exist, following your reasoning, in a universe-beyond-the-universe-of-the-creator-of-the-creator-of-our-universe? And so on, ad infinitum? That’s, like, exactly “turtles all the way down”!

I mean, sure, we can speculate. We can speculate about all kinds of things, why not? But when it comes to arriving at an actual worldview, an actual model of reality as we best understand it, then that’s a bit different than wild speculations, isn’t it?


Of course I meant it in the "How" sense, not that there is much important difference.

What kind of bread crumbs would you expect (say) a creator of time and space to leave laying around as evidence? A celestial hammer or screwdriver floating in the cosmos? Maybe a coffee cup and a couple cigarette butts? Again, dead serious question: what would you expect to find, that a creator would leave hanging around for eons? Maybe an Instagram page?

Why would you expect a creator of time and space to be doing hanging around that time and space, of course also conveniently in our current comfortable viewing area and within the confines of our current technology?

Remember, incomprehensible =/= undetectable or any of the other weird add-ons. Also, whatever interactions with such a thing that you guys are trying to pile on are not the question, either. And most importantly, this doesn't have anything to do with how you live your life. It's just the simple musing of whether there could or couldn't be something out there we would call a god. How we would or should proceed from there is a separate question. Don't be like the doorstops posting here who try to lump 8 or 9 entirely different issues all into one.


The rest of this portion of your post I think I’ve already addressed. But as far as the highlighted:

Again, simply musing, simply speculating, that’s fine, obviously. I could speculate about us living in a simulated universe. Speaking of dragons, I could muse about maybe homo-something-or-the-other perhaps overlapping with and existing together for awhile with dinosaurs, and us facing meteors raining fire down from the sky along with those huge creatures, some of them capable of flight; which is why these legends of enormous fire-belching dragons from cultures all over the world; and it’s a pretty cool speculation, too. For that matter we could speculate about aliens having come down and fiddled around with us humans at key intervention points, like teaching us about fire, and teaching us language, and teaching us about making and using tools, and so on, and including placing into Einstein’s mind the wisps of the Relativity business, and so on; and that’s an even cooler speculation, and with enough imagination can bulk up a super cool sci fi story --- as in fact it has. If all you’re doing is simply speculating, and musing, well then that’s fine, and that can be done without a whole arsenal of evidence supporting it, sure.

But is that actually what you’re doing, simply raising random speculations and simply musing, without claiming that you’re seriously suggesting that any of this might speak to reality? If the answer is Yes, then as far as I’m concerned that’s perfectly cool, and nothing more need be said. So, is the answer a Yes, and is that all you’re doing here?
 
It's not very different. Showing the validity of a new hypothesis by building a body of work through peer review is how the scientific consensus gets changed. ID proponents are going through that process. Who knows? Maybe their views will gain traction in the scientific community. Currently there is no evidence for the validity of the ID hypothesis, but let them keep trying. That's what science is all about.


Creationism is theology. Anything that has "God can do X", whether from an atheist or theist, is theology, ID is a failed hypothesis. It has been examined by science and found wanting. Some elements have passed peer review, which doesn't mean that the hypothesis itself is valid.

No it isn't.

Go read the admission by the originators of ID under oath at the Dover trial that it is creationism but using ID rather than god.

It was never a scientific hypothesis.

You can read all the trial documents here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?pageid=dover
 

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