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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Clearly, yes.

Minors are another matter, but we cannot sensibly complain that the evidence base for youth gender medicine is sorely lacking (it is) and then make it illegal to gather any more evidence.
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In a rational society you would hope that was the case but as we can see you really can and it will and has happened.

And I am sorry but this is a matter of if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. (As ever I am talking about the extremists on both sides.)
 
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Would you consider this definition of transgender, that it includes (but is not necessarily confined to) people who have had surgery to reassign their sex, and live as women (feminine clothes etc...) to be transgender?

OK, run with that as a (narrow) definition of transgender.

What do you mean by transphobia?
 
There is nothing emotive or bombastic about what I am saying. I am asking if you understand the word “transphobia” and if not then do you understand homophobia or xenophobia?

I understand the hypothetical and conceptual meaning of the term. That conceptual basis not how it is actually applied in real life.

So... What meaning do YOU use for the word transphobia? Is that meaning consistent with the situations in which YOU use the term?
 
Transphobia is a strong dislike or prejudice against transgender people qua people.

Some good examples of transphobia would be to deliberately misgender

I disagree.

For example, the handful of cases where the female victim of a rape perpetrated by a male who identifies as a "woman". In those cases, using "gender identity pronouns" is performative nonsense. Compelling a victim to refer to their male rapist as "she" is absurd and offensive. It is also in direct contradiction to the material reality of the person's sex, as well as hundreds of thousands of years of evolution which has granted us an extremely good ability to discern the sex of other people from visual scan of physical cues associated with our sexually dimorphic species.
 
Clearly, yes.

Minors are another matter, but we cannot sensibly complain that the evidence base for youth gender medicine is sorely lacking (it is) and then make it illegal to gather any more evidence.

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I'm on the fence. I'm not so sure it is overreach for adults. It's essentially rolling back all aspects of self-id, and requiring more or less the same gatekeeper treatments that existed in the past.

I think it's inappropriate that this be put in place by politicians, I'd rather it were done by the medical community. But given that the medical community has gone wild west free for all with it... meh. I don't know.
 
Sure. Let’s go with that. Would you accept that they are transgender then?

Let's go with which? I asked you an either/or question and if the answer was that you meant gender instead of sex then your question needs to be restated using those terms.
 
You'll probably have to be more specific. It seems to me that "sex-based rights" is itself a slogan which you will have to explain.

"Sex-based rights" is not a slogan, it's a descriptive term, although a perhaps more appropriate term for most of the individual issues would be "sex-based segregation or sex-based distinction.

I think that sports is a pretty straight forward place to illustrate this. But it must be taken as given that sex and gender are seperate, but related concepts.

Does the segregation is sport exist because of sex (biology) or gender (psychology/sociology)? Is it due to the difference in physical attributes and capabilities between two populations or is it due to social concerns: "Boys and girls shouldn't play together!" Arguably, there is a combination of both in play.

I think that there is no longer justification for social segregation in sports. The idea that girls and boys (men and women) shouldn't play together is obsolete and should be discarded. The only rational reason is the differences in physical capability between males as a population and females as a population. So I think the segregation is primarily sex-based.

So the "right" to sports league segregation could be termed as a "sex-based right."

I will note that some people argue that trans advocates, including some athletes, argue that there is variation within the populations and therefore trans-women don't really get an advantage. This indicates a lack of understanding of populations and statistics. This argument does not support the idea that a particular trans-woman (or trans-women in general) belongs in the "female" population. Rather it is really more of an argument that there are not two populations at all. Neither side wants that.

If there is a single population, there is no rationale for segregated leagues. But we know from the statistics that a single set of leagues will be dominated by males, with relatively few females.

Now, an argument could be made on an individual case basis that treatments associated with transition might sufficiently remove the advantage such that a particular person might move from one population to the other. The problem is that this is very hard to test for. And what kind of performance change should be required anyway? A percentage somehow measured in good faith both before and after transition? Performance at a level where the athlete is unlikely to win? A certain amount of time? Thus far, no one seems to have come up with a very good formula.

Sometimes athletes have to make choices between sports and healthcare. For example, many of the drugs that are outlawed in sports as PEDs have therapeutic benefits for certain conditions. At the time my daughter played softball, some medications for ADHD were not allowed (adderall).

Another area where "sex-based rights" comes up is something Emily's Cat often mentions: scholarships and set asides for women. These are things that were designed to help women overcome discrimination and sexism and get them into certain fields or guarantee a certain level of representation on certain committees, boards, etc. Note that these are pretty much socially derived.

The argument here is that these programs were created to battle sex discrimination and that giving them to a male (trans-women are still male by sex) the objective is circumvented. I'm a little fuzzier on this, because I think the objective of these programs should be that at some point they will have accomplished their missions and then go away. Also, many of these things, such as scholarships, are offered by private organizations who can make and modify their rules as they see fit.

But the idea is that if, for instance a law was passed in 1975 that at least 3 of ten members of the governing board of a public univesity must be women, the intention was to give women guaranteed representation to avoid or overcome sex discrimination. A transgender woman filling this role would not meet this requirement because they are not of the sex in question and have not faced that discrimination. Obviously, it's not that they have not faced discrimination, but that they have faced a different sort of discrimination and therefore bring representation of different concerns to the table. So if one of the three "woman" board menbers is a trans woman, the female representation is only 20%, not the intended 30%.

And then the right to segregated spaces. Are the segregated spaces segregated by sex or by gender? Depending on why you think we have segregated spaces, you either think these are sex-based or gender-based rights. Or you think that the whole segregation thing is outdated and we should be moving away from it entirely.

Does this give you an idea of what is meant by sex-based rights?
Note that thinking that any of these areas are sex-based and not gender-based does not imply any animus, dislike, or disrespect for trans people or the validity of their identity, just that in certain cases, it is about sex, not gender.

The fact that people who are transphobic will hold these positions does not make the positions transphobic. Nor does it follow that one is transphobic for holding these positions. Just as the fact that voyeuristic men might support self-id as it gives them easier access to unclothed women does not make the idea of self-id misogynistic. (I don't think most trans people who support self-id do so out of a desire to hurt women.)

This is getting long. I didn't intend to write an essay.
 
I disagree.

For example, the handful of cases where the female victim of a rape perpetrated by a male who identifies as a "woman". In those cases, using "gender identity pronouns" is performative nonsense. Compelling a victim to refer to their male rapist as "she" is absurd and offensive. It is also in direct contradiction to the material reality of the person's sex, as well as hundreds of thousands of years of evolution which has granted us an extremely good ability to discern the sex of other people from visual scan of physical cues associated with our sexually dimorphic species.

So you don't think its rude or intolerant to refer to a transwoman as "sir"?
 
Sooo, when told that X is not transphobia, I wanted to find out if anyone agrees that it actually exists.



What I got was essentially denial that transphobia existed...









I made a number of posts asserting that I think transphobia is real.

So, after that it became "what is transgender"?

I find it a bit irritating that having answered the questions that were asked of me I am then asked why I am answering the questions.

So if you agree with me on the specific point, you can stop arguing with me on that point. Will you acknowledge and accept that?

First off, transphobia is real. So are homophobia and misogyny.

The context of at least some of the comments is that anytime someone says: I disagree with <insert aspect of TRA "agenda"> the term transphobe is thrown back at them. Over time, I actually think doing so creates transphobia, or at least behavior that resembles transphobia, where it did not exist before.
 
So you don't think its rude or intolerant to refer to a transwoman as "sir"?

It depends. In some many it would probably be considered rude - but rudeness is NOT transphobia. In some cases, it would be a true reflection of one's perception.

As for intolerant, again, it depends. Is it intolerant for a rape victim to refer to their male attacker as "he"? Is it less intolerant to force a victim to refer to an obviously male rapist as "she"?

At the end of the day, nobody is required to be polite. Even with the requirement of civility here on ISF, there are a whole lot of people who are not polite. And forced politeness in opposition to real perception is compulsion.

Look, I don't perceive of Eddie Izzard as being in any fashion a woman. I don't even perceive Eddie Izzard as being feminine. Eddie is a male that enjoys wearing female-typical clothing and make-up. If I'm face-to-face with Izzard, I'll call them by name. Out of simple decency, I would attempt to avoid any mention of their sex at all. But if they aren't in the room, I see zero reason why I should be expected to refer to them as "she". Eddie Izzard is a male, and when I look at them, I see a male.
 
It depends. In some many it would probably be considered rude - but rudeness is NOT transphobia. In some cases, it would be a true reflection of one's perception.

As for intolerant, again, it depends. Is it intolerant for a rape victim to refer to their male attacker as "he"? Is it less intolerant to force a victim to refer to an obviously male rapist as "she"?

At the end of the day, nobody is required to be polite. Even with the requirement of civility here on ISF, there are a whole lot of people who are not polite. And forced politeness in opposition to real perception is compulsion.

Look, I don't perceive of Eddie Izzard as being in any fashion a woman. I don't even perceive Eddie Izzard as being feminine. Eddie is a male that enjoys wearing female-typical clothing and make-up. If I'm face-to-face with Izzard, I'll call them by name. Out of simple decency, I would attempt to avoid any mention of their sex at all. But if they aren't in the room, I see zero reason why I should be expected to refer to them as "she". Eddie Izzard is a male, and when I look at them, I see a male.

Eddie Lizard is a poor example as he has clearly stated he sometimes want to be known as a he and other times as a she.

I am talking about fully transitioned trans women who 24 hours a day live their life as a woman.

I don't think it would be very polite to loudly and persistently refer to such a person as "sir". I would understand if some would consider such repeated behavior to be symptomatic of bigotry.

Personally I think if a transgender woman has long hair wear dresses wears makeup has a high-pitched voice really has worked very hard to act and be seen as a woman the polite thing to do is refer to them as a woman. Or at the very least simply refer to them by their chosen female name.

Is refusing to do such an example of bigotry? Possibly yes. Or at the very least you're an *******.
 
It depends. In some many it would probably be considered rude - but rudeness is NOT transphobia. In some cases, it would be a true reflection of one's perception.

It has less to do with perception than it does with intent. Misgendering or deadnaming on accident is rude, but not transphobic. Doing it intentionally is, indeed, transphobic.
 
OK, run with that as a (narrow) definition of transgender.

What do you mean by transphobia?

Already answered.

Lionking is upset that I am “defining terms” while I am constantly being asked to do so…..

Transphobia is a strong dislike or prejudice against transgender people qua people.

Some good examples of transphobia would be to deliberately misgender or to argue that they are weird for being transgender or to engage in violent rhetoric about transgender people (by that I mean where physical violence is invoked) or, in some extreme cases to commit actual physical violence against them because they are transgender.

I think that is a good definition to go on with, would you disagree with it? I would be happy to modify it if a good case for doing so is made, but if you think that it still does not count then I would be interested to know what, if anything would.
 
It has less to do with perception than it does with intent. Misgendering or deadnaming on accident is rude, but not transphobic. Doing it intentionally is, indeed, transphobic.

Sometimes its ignorant and rude, sometimes its intentionally bigoted hence "transphobic".
 
I suggest you take this argument up with whoever told you it doesn't exist, rather than trying to beat all of us about the head and shoulders with this.

I WAS taking it up with people who said it. And while doing so, lionking decided to start sticking his oar into the conversation. You people can always choose not to insert yourself into a conversation if you think it has nothing to do with you. It’s actually the height of rudeness to eavesdrop and then declare “NOT ME! I am INNOCENT!” Okay, you are innocent. Then stay out of it.
 
I understand the hypothetical and conceptual meaning of the term. That conceptual basis not how it is actually applied in real life.

So... What meaning do YOU use for the word transphobia? Is that meaning consistent with the situations in which YOU use the term?

Oh man! I said what it was in this thread!!!!!!

How many times are we going to do this?
 
I WAS taking it up with people who said it. And while doing so, lionking decided to start sticking his oar into the conversation. You people can always choose not to insert yourself into a conversation if you think it has nothing to do with you. It’s actually the height of rudeness to eavesdrop and then declare “NOT ME! I am INNOCENT!” Okay, you are innocent. Then stay out of it.

I was posting on topic. This thread is not for you to decide which direction it proceeds and I will participate the way I choose. If you think I was posting off topic report away.
 
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