Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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It's an knee-jerk epithet used to demonize and dismiss dissent from the TRA orthodoxy.

But I'd much rather see coherent arguments in declarative forms, than this kind of pseudo-socratic JAQ-off. Do you have anything to offer on that score?
 
Transphobia is a strong dislike or prejudice against transgender people qua people.

Some good examples of transphobia would be to deliberately misgender or to argue that they are weird for being transgender or to engage in violent rhetoric about transgender people (by that I mean where physical violence is invoked) or, in some extreme cases to commit actual physical violence against them because they are transgender.

I think that is a good definition to go on with, would you disagree with it? I would be happy to modify it if a good case for doing so is made, but if you think that it still does not count then I would be interested to know what, if anything would.
 
angrysoba said:
Transphobia is a strong dislike or prejudice against transgender people qua people.

Some good examples of transphobia would be to ...
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Who are transgender people?

If it is anyone who claims they are, based on self ID, then you will get pushback.
 
Aber said:
Who are transgender people?

If it is anyone who claims they are, based on self ID, then you will get pushback.
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People can always argue over definitions by questioning the least supportable areas. It is not clear, for example, that a urinal with the word "Mutt" written on it is art, but it doesn't mean we throw out the concept of art altogether. Everyone can agree that the Mona Lisa is art.

I am trying to establish whether anyone will accept that some people will accept that transgender people exist at all.

I will consider that at the very least it is a sufficient condition that someone is transgender if they have sex-reassignment surgery and live like the opposite sex. So let's shelve self-ID (which I think is an untenable definition, by the way).

Would you consider this definition of transgender, that it includes (but is not necessarily confined to) people who have had surgery to reassign their sex, and live as women (feminine clothes etc...) to be transgender?
 
angrysoba said:
People can always argue over definitions by questioning the least supportable areas. It is not clear, for example, that a urinal with the word "Mutt" written on it is art, but it doesn't mean we throw out the concept of art altogether. Everyone can agree that the Mona Lisa is art.

I am trying to establish whether anyone will accept that some people will accept that transgender people exist at all.

I will consider that at the very least it is a sufficient condition that someone is transgender if they have sex-reassignment surgery and live like the opposite sex. So let's shelve self-ID (which I think is an untenable definition, by the way).

Would you consider this definition of transgender, that it includes (but is not necessarily confined to) people who have had surgery to reassign their sex, and live as women (feminine clothes etc...) to be transgender?
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If sex is a biological concept then they can't reassign it, they can only mask it to the extent they mimic some of the attributes of the opposite sex.

Or did you mean gender..?
 
Lplus said:
If sex is a biological concept then they can't reassign it, they can only mask it to the extent they mimic some of the attributes of the opposite sex.

Or did you mean gender..?
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Exactly. Recycling back to the first pages of this long thread.

I don’t think one person ever on this thread has denied the right of anyone to identify as whatever gender they wish, and to not suffer discrimination in areas of employment, housing and government services.

The areas of disagreement come when some (by no means all) transwomen insist they are women as a matter of fact and demanding access to women’s facilities, sports, jails and hospitals. Allowing such access impacts on hard won women’s rights.

Disagreeing with these demands do not make people transphobic or bigoted. But these labels have been appropriated and thrown around by trans rights activists with abandon. And a number of members of this forum it would seem.

I have been called a bigot and a transphobe in this thread (usually surrounded by sophistry, but not always). I am not.
 
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This type of aggressive protest, that results in the cancellation and so the effective censorship and banning, is wrong.

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/tr...lm-at-university-of-edinburgh-for-second-time

"Trans rights activists block screening of documentary for second time

The screening of Adult Human Female did not go ahead after students protested the film for a second time."

I would also object to the cancelling of a film supporting trans rights.
 
Nessie said:
This type of aggressive protest, that results in the cancellation and so the effective censorship and banning, is wrong.

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/tr...lm-at-university-of-edinburgh-for-second-time

"Trans rights activists block screening of documentary for second time

The screening of Adult Human Female did not go ahead after students protested the film for a second time."

I would also object to the cancelling of a film supporting trans rights.
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There protests seem to come from only one side.

The documentary is available on YouTube. I will watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HFMSm-JBo
 
Lplus said:
If sex is a biological concept then they can't reassign it, they can only mask it to the extent they mimic some of the attributes of the opposite sex.

Or did you mean gender..?
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Sure. Let’s go with that. Would you accept that they are transgender then?
 
angrysoba said:
Sure. Let’s go with that. Would you accept that they are transgender then?
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Do you get that it’s not about terminology but about transwomen (predominately) demanding “rights” which will have detrimental impacts on women?

I don’t think anyone cares about terminology. I certainly don’t. What I care about is violent prisoners with fully functioning penises declaring they are female, demanding access to women’s prisons and getting that access. About Lia Thomas and other athletes who went through male puberty demanding the right to compete against women. It’s not that hard to understand.

By the way, Lia Thomas has a girlfriend and identifies as both a transwoman and a lesbian. Can you explain the idea of a lesbian with a functioning penis?

This is the terminological nonsense TRAs are using
 
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lionking said:
Do you get that it’s not about terminology but about transwomen (predominately) demanding “rights” which will have detrimental impacts on women?

I don’t think anyone cares about terminology. I certainly don’t. What I care about is violent prisoners with fully functioning penises declaring they are female, demanding access to women’s prisons and getting that access. About Lia Thomas and other athletes who went through male puberty demanding the right to compete against women. It’s not that hard to understand.
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More motte-and-bailey.

This is very frustrating because I was told that transphobia does not exist. I think it DOES, so I was challenged to offer a definition. So I DID. Then I was challenged to define transgender, so I DID, and now I am told that this is not about terminology.

Don’t demand that I do thing X and then declare that thing X is not important. And if you say, “well I wasn’t the one doing it” then try to keep up with the conversation.

But I will ask you anyway, if you think there is such a thing as transphobia.
 
angrysoba said:
More motte-and-bailey.

This is very frustrating because I was told that transphobia does not exist. I think it DOES, so I was challenged to offer a definition. So I DID. Then I was challenged to define transgender, so I DID, and now I am told that this is not about terminology.

Don’t demand that I do thing X and then declare that thing X is not important. And if you say, “well I wasn’t the one doing it” then try to keep up with the conversation.

But I will ask you anyway, if you think there is such a thing as transphobia.
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Transphobia exists as does misogyny. So what?

What this thread has been almost exclusively about is not people identifying as another gender, it’s about the demands of TRAs which impact adversely on women (in the main). It’s about transwomen who are bad actors. It’s about groups like Stonewall and Mermaids advocating to government to reduce women’s rights and having their demands accepted. those are the things I’m interested in talking about not ridiculous attempted terminological gotchas.

What is apparent to me is transphobia doesn’t exist in this thread
 
This news story out of Missouri is a good example of right-wing overreaction and overreach on trans rights issues.





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lionking said:
Transphobia exists as does misogyny. So what?
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Sooo, when told that X is not transphobia, I wanted to find out if anyone agrees that it actually exists.

angrysoba said:
What is transphobia?
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What I got was essentially denial that transphobia existed...

d4m10n said:
Any statement about transgender issues which runs counter to the policy goals of Stonewall.
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Brainster said:
Largely a marketing term that says, "You're the one who's weird, not men who put on women's clothing and hang around in bars." Taken literally it would mean fear of transgendered people, which seems ludicrous to me, but I could understand it coming from women incarcerated with transwomen sex offenders. I'm sure a lot of people (like Kid Rock and Ted Nugent) are disgusted or feel revulsion and that's what gets classified as a phobia.
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IsThisTheLife said:
There's a basic problem here, which is that by even using the cultural-marxist terminology that's been invented and shoe-horned into our language you validate it and allow yourselves to be corralled ("valid" is one of London Ja ... John's favourite words). I refuse to use asinine, made up words and phrases like "transphobia" and "gender non-binary" EVER (except in quotation marks) because it makes me feel like an idiot (or a 'liberal').
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theprestige said:
It's an knee-jerk epithet used to demonize and dismiss dissent from the TRA orthodoxy.
But I'd much rather see coherent arguments in declarative forms, than this kind of pseudo-socratic JAQ-off. Do you have anything to offer on that score?
Click to expand...

I made a number of posts asserting that I think transphobia is real.

So, after that it became "what is transgender"?

I find it a bit irritating that having answered the questions that were asked of me I am then asked why I am answering the questions.

So if you agree with me on the specific point, you can stop arguing with me on that point. Will you acknowledge and accept that?
 
angrysoba said:
Sooo, when told that X is not transphobia, I wanted to find out if anyone agrees that it actually exists.



What I got was essentially denial that transphobia existed...









I made a number of posts asserting that I think transphobia is real.

So, after that it became "what is transgender"?

I find it a bit irritating that having answered the questions that were asked of me I am then asked why I am answering the questions.

So if you agree with me on the specific point, you can stop arguing with me on that point. Will you acknowledge and accept that?
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I didn’t ask those questions you were referring to. I asked you other questions you ignored. I see no reason for me to acknowledge or accept anything.
 
Samson said:
Are you saying it is overreach with adults?
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Clearly, yes.

Minors are another matter, but we cannot sensibly complain that the evidence base for youth gender medicine is sorely lacking (it is) and then make it illegal to gather any more evidence.

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