• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

Beauty: that which is pleasing to the eye. Same thing across cultures.

I dunno, I'm ok with disparate interpretations of a god, filtered through an individual or group's culture.

But, as you've already pointed out, it isn't the same thing across cultures.

What is god/beauty to one culture is different than what is god/beauty to another culture, and saying they're the same thing because you made the definition so nebulous as to have no meaning at all is...an invisible dragon in my garage type claim.



Which, as I've said since the original thread, works when you are refuting a specific God with claimed known attributes. It doesn't work against the broad concept of a god.

The invisible dragon doesn't work against ever broadening, changing descriptions of the concept of a god, you say? Are you certain you grasp the point of the analogy?
 
Yeah everything is a different version of everything if you define it as vaguely and special pleadingly as god.

Die Hard and Eraserhead are the same movie if you define movie as clearly as you do god.
 
Again so we don't get pulled into the weeds here's all I'm saying.

1. I'm allowed to say "There is no god" without modifying the phrasing into a wish-washy statement of belief and should get zero grief for phrasing it that.

2. I do not "not believe" in god and reject attempts to phrase it that way. God does not meet the requirement to even be a valid question.

3. Distinctions like "Do you believe in x or do you not believe there isn't an x?" are meaningless and not valid.

4. The First Cause, the First Mover, the Watchmakers, and others like it do not actually describe a god that anyone actually believes in an anyway that matters and I'm tired of god discussion only allowing the vague god of special pleadings into the discourse and not actual gods that people believe.

5. God is not a special concept that has be discussed differently from everything else.

6. No, not everyone believes in the same god but they just "perceive it differently." You can't just lump all gods together with all their variations and incompatibilities under one argument to make it easier.

7. No it is not "skeptical" or "intellectually honest" or "fair" or whatever to say "Well there is absolutely no evidence for god nor any reason to even think he exists, but still the right thing to do is go 'I don't know.'" The person screaming that there is a dragon in the garage and the person saying there isn't are not both being equally unreasonable.
 
Again so we don't get pulled into the weeds here's all I'm saying.

1. I'm allowed to say "There is no god" without modifying the phrasing into a wish-washy statement of belief and should get zero grief for phrasing it that.

2. I do not "not believe" in god and reject attempts to phrase it that way. God does not meet the requirement to even be a valid question.

3. Distinctions like "Do you believe in x or do you not believe there isn't an x?" are meaningless and not valid.

4. The First Cause, the First Mover, the Watchmakers, and others like it do not actually describe a god that anyone actually believes in an anyway that matters and I'm tired of god discussion only allowing the vague god of special pleadings into the discourse and not actual gods that people believe.

5. God is not a special concept that has be discussed differently from everything else.

6. No, not everyone believes in the same god but they just "perceive it differently." You can't just lump all gods together with all their variations and incompatibilities under one argument to make it easier.

7. No it is not "skeptical" or "intellectually honest" or "fair" or whatever to say "Well there is absolutely no evidence for god nor any reason to even think he exists, but still the right thing to do is go 'I don't know.'" The person screaming that there is a dragon in the garage and the person saying there isn't are not both being equally unreasonable.

I agree on all points.

Hans
 
I would disagree. A claim is a claim, even if you have no audience at all, and no one's agreement is sought other than your own self. If you found yourself marooned on an island, all by yourself, even then, the rules of rationality and evidence and burden of proof etc would still apply.

It isn't as if it is rational to believe all manner of nonsense if only you kept it to yourself. A woo-believer's beliefs are woo, and nonsensical, even if he makes no effort to peddle those beliefs.

There is a distinction between the epistemic question of how best to form beliefs, and the dialectical question of how best to present them as claims. "Claims" are dialectical offerings, not simply logical propositions nor epistemic beliefs. I suppose one *could* internalize the process of offering such, just as one *could* talk to oneself. But I don't see how that affects my point. We are still projecting an audience that is to be convinced, and asking under what circumstances one could expect such an audience to be thus convinced.
 
Last edited:
Are they the same God? Not according to the scriptures of most religions. Christianity, Islam and Judaism lay claim to supposedly the same god, but each has very different ideas.

You prove the point. God is simply one's own creation. There are as many different concepts of god as there are believers.

What I am 100 percent sure about is even if there is a creator not a single one of the believers can honestly say they have a clue about what God thinks or wants. Not a one.

Will folk please stop saying this! :D

Remember Jesus is God the Son for only one of those religions. That is a fundamental difference in their gods.
 
Agreed, rigidly defined organized religion is self defeating.

I've been around religious folk all my life. Most take the wishy washy salad bar approach that you seem to think is a rare outlier. I don't entirely get why they identify with a religion that they have major issues with, but it's pretty commonplace over here in the States.

My wife and one of my kids are RC CCD teachers, but are strong liberals with all the pro-choice stances that come with that. They don't believe in papal infallibility or any of that. Yet there they are, still identifying as Catholics. What a lot of people get out of their religious identification is far less s theological position and far more about a vague kind of "spirituality".

Which is why I try to be careful and talk about the religions rather than the individuals.
 
*Looks at the world*

You know if all religions believe in the same god nobody bothered to tell religion that.
 
Last edited:
"Muslims, Jews, and Christians all believe in the same god."

Well it's a good thing that's the only 3 religions in the world.

*Holding hand up to my ear* "What's that you say? Hinduism? 1.2 BILLION people you say? Uhhuh. Gotcha. 500 million Buddhist? 100 million Shinto? 30 million Sikh? Interesting."

Okay so I've some updated info here and not everyone believes in the same god.
 
But, as you've already pointed out, it isn't the same thing across cultures.

What is god/beauty to one culture is different than what is god/beauty to another culture, and saying they're the same thing because you made the definition so nebulous as to have no meaning at all is...an invisible dragon in my garage type claim.





The invisible dragon doesn't work against ever broadening, changing descriptions of the concept of a god, you say? Are you certain you grasp the point of the analogy?

Yes,I do, especially in the context of the rest of the chapter where he writes it. Sagan is showing that we need to be skeptical of unverifiable claims. He talks about that specifically at length.

The dragon starts with a person making an extraordinary claim, that they have a fire breathing dragon in their garage that you could come see. Ok. Fire, dragon, seeing, etc all have meanings to us. But then those meanings are changed on the fly, which is why it's not a special pleading. It was just bull **** right out of the gate, and the claimant knew it. He didn't think he really had a dragon who was subject to special exemptions. He was simply full of ****. That's the point of the Dragon analogy, and in fact the declared point of the whole ******* book. Be skeptical and critical, especially in the face of wild and unverifiable claims. He goes on immediately to compare this with claims of alien abduction and the scarring that couldn't be shown. The whole point was to challenge specific claims that could not be falsified or verified, not to apply it to any discussion about an intangible. It works with beer cans. It doesn't work with abstractions.

So yeah, I get the point. It's author went to lengths to flesh it out clearly. I would ask those who are misinterpreting it the same question.
 
I have demonstrated over and over that the Abrahamic God has all of the properties of a god that I described (including creator of the universe) but you are so in awe of your "p-god" cleverness that you constantly pretend that those posts don't exist.

Have you demonstrated that 'the' Abrahamic God exists? Or that there is any evidence that she might?
 
Have you demonstrated that 'the' Abrahamic God exists? Or that there is any evidence that she might?

"If I define him as nothing, you can't say he doesn't exist, therefore he might exists, therefor he does exist."
 
"Muslims, Jews, and Christians all believe in the same god."

Well it's a good thing that's the only 3 religions in the world.

No-one said that was the only god, nor those the only three religions. It was psionl0's claim that those three religions believed in the same god, when that is clearly false.
 
No-one said that was the only god, nor those the only three religions. It was psionl0's claim that those three religions believed in the same god, when that is clearly false.

I guess I'm just confused as to what picking 3 religions out of hundreds and going "Well they believe in the same god!" is supposed to prove or show, false or not.

As with everything, I'm lost as to what his point is before I even get to whether or not it's right or wrong as a statement.
 
Last edited:
There is a distinction between the epistemic question of how best to form beliefs, and the dialectical question of how best to present them as claims. "Claims" are dialectical offerings, not simply logical propositions nor epistemic beliefs. I suppose one *could* internalize the process of offering such, just as one *could* talk to oneself. But I don't see how that affects my point. We are still projecting an audience that is to be convinced, and asking under what circumstances one could expect such an audience to be thus convinced.


Heh, no, I wasn't referring to Crusoe gone lonesome and conjuring up Friday to speak to, or that Life of Pi kid conjuring up a tiger at sea to converse with.

I think it makes sense to think of the burden of proof vesting with propositions, or claims, rather than people. Whichever proposition, whichever claim, satisfies the burden of proof; that proposition, that claim, it is reasonable to accept.

As for who is to actually go look for the proof, well, that would be whoever gives a damn.

Sure, in daily interactions, should someone present a claim, we do ask them for proof, or evidence. But I think that's an approximation of and shorthand for "You're selling me that claim, so presumably you've bought it yourself; and you can only have reasonably bought it yourself if you've seen adequate proof or evidence for it; plus you're going to the trouble of selling me it so presumably you can be expected to also take the trouble to show me the proof, that in any case you presumably already have. So, yeah, show me the proof, else walk away with your claim, because I'll assume that's random nonsense that had no evidence supporting it."

That approximation works well enough in practice, in general. But one can easily think up scenarios where a claim is presented, and the one who actually takes the trouble to see if there's evidence for it is someone to whom the claim is important, not necessarily the one who presented it. That is because burden of proof attaches to propositions, not people.

Rationality, I believe, is primarily about how to think reasonably; and also about how to interact with others, sure, but that latter I'd say is secondary. It isn't as if rationality only obtains in a group, or by a solitary man projecting and/or hallucinating other people to talk with.
 
Yes,I do, especially in the context of the rest of the chapter where he writes it. Sagan is showing that we need to be skeptical of unverifiable claims. He talks about that specifically at length.

The dragon starts with a person making an extraordinary claim, that they have a fire breathing dragon in their garage that you could come see. Ok. Fire, dragon, seeing, etc all have meanings to us. But then those meanings are changed on the fly, which is why it's not a special pleading. It was just bull **** right out of the gate, and the claimant knew it. He didn't think he really had a dragon who was subject to special exemptions. He was simply full of ****. That's the point of the Dragon analogy, and in fact the declared point of the whole ******* book. Be skeptical and critical, especially in the face of wild and unverifiable claims. He goes on immediately to compare this with claims of alien abduction and the scarring that couldn't be shown. The whole point was to challenge specific claims that could not be falsified or verified, not to apply it to any discussion about an intangible. It works with beer cans. It doesn't work with abstractions.

So yeah, I get the point. It's author went to lengths to flesh it out clearly. I would ask those who are misinterpreting it the same question.

No, you pretty clearly are missing something. You're applying the very same meaning changes to god and beauty as the dragon claimant does in the analogy, and are for some reason inserting a claim that the dragon proponent was bull ******** which was not in Sagan's story. Folks who walk the idea of god ever further into vague terms and somewhere out there in the universe aren't necessarily bull ********, they're just inventing ever more reasons why god can't be ruled out. Just like the dragon proponent does. Are you claiming that you are bull ******** us with your "Might there be an incomprehensible force which is out there beyond our current ken in the vastness of time and space eclipsing all we have known or could know?" question? I think you aren't, you just really want to keep open the possibility of a god no matter how much you have to change the definitions of god on the fly to allow that.
 
I think you aren't, you just really want to keep open the possibility of a god no matter how much you have to change the definitions of god on the fly to allow that.

I mean... yeah. That's so obvious it feels weird to even say it. Like looking at the sun and going "Wow that's bright."

It's an escape clause. That's all. All the theatrics is just trying to pretend it is some sort of cost-benefit rational decision.
 
No, you pretty clearly are missing something. You're applying the very same meaning changes to god and beauty as the dragon claimant does in the analogy,

Factually untrue. I've kept to exactly the same meaning since the start of the other thread.

and are for some reason inserting a claim that the dragon proponent was bull ******** which was not in Sagan's story. Folks who walk the idea of god ever further into vague terms and somewhere out there in the universe aren't necessarily bull ********, they're just inventing ever more reasons why god can't be ruled out.

Fair call. A religious believer need not have been intentionally deceptive, and really believe what he claims, and is just winging excuses on the fly. Conceded, although it makes little difference.

Just like the dragon proponent does. Are you claiming that you are bull ******** us with your "Might there be an incomprehensible force which is out there beyond our current ken in the vastness of time and space eclipsing all we have known or could know?" question? I think you aren't, you just really want to keep open the possibility of a god no matter how much you have to change the definitions of god on the fly to allow that.

Again, utter bull ****. I haven't moved anything an iota. I've started with the idea of a god as something incomprehensible to mortals by nature, and maintained that through both threads. We've been through this many times, man. There's no point in discussing anything if you make **** up.
 
//Trying to find the best way to word this, fair?//

The problem is people define god as a concept and argue it as a thing and vice versa.
 
Last edited:
Factually untrue. I've kept to exactly the same meaning since the start of the other thread.

I'll take your word for it, as this is the first time you and I have participated together in one of these conversations. You aren't changing your god definition on the fly, then, you're just defining god in such a nebulous, wishy washy way that it cannot be disproven, but it's also as useful as the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" navel gazing exercise.

Again, utter bull ****. I haven't moved anything an iota. I've started with the idea of a god as something incomprehensible to mortals by nature, and maintained that through both threads. We've been through this many times, man. There's no point in discussing anything if you make **** up.

To repeat, no we haven't had this discussion before, and I am not a participant in the other thread. And rather than accuse you of lying or making **** up, I'm just going to point out that you made a mistake.

An incomprehensible, undetectable, unobservable, being that's possibly out there is the same thing as the invisible dragon, though. It appears that the only actual sticking point is whether it's in your garage or somewhere out there in the vastness of the cosmos, which makes no difference if it's unobservable, incomprehensible, and undetectable and has no effect on this universe.
 

Back
Top Bottom