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Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

psionl0 said:
I'm not discussing where people live in the afterlife.
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Ah... my mistake... so it is only WHERE the afterlife is that you don't know... but that THERE IS an afterlife you know for sure... ah... thanks for clearing that up.

So you know that there is an afterlife and you believe it... right??

Ah... and do you know what it actually is and whether it is ephemeral or eternal?
 
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Darat said:
That if you have an undefined word i.e. god then you can't say it doesn't exist.
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Hmm. Perhaps that's the next step in his dance, but so far it seems to be 'you can't be an athiest just because you lack belief in god/God/God, because lacking belief in god is the same as lacking not a belief in god'. Which, again, is psionl0 disputing a dictionary definition with faulty logic.
 
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Right. Which is why since you can't tell me whether a dragon, drake, wyrn, cockarice, or Hydra doesn't exist in my garage, you cannot simply say "There is no dragon in my garage" you have to phrase it as a wishy-washy statement passive belief or I will be in the right to pitch a hissy fit and go "NO! You aren't allowed to say it that way! Those are the rules! You have to say you don't believe there is a dragon in my garage."
 
JoeMorgue said:
Right. Which is why since you can't tell me whether a dragon, drake, wyrn, cockarice, or Hydra doesn't exist in my garage, you cannot simply say "There is no dragon in my garage" you have to phrase it as a wishy-washy statement passive belief or I will be in the right to pitch a hissy fit and go "NO! You aren't allowed to say it that way! Those are the rules! You have to say you don't believe there is a dragon in my garage."
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Apparently I can only be an a-dragon-in-your-garage-ist if I positively declare there is no dragon, there cannot be a dragon, I wear anti-dragon t-shirts, and I stop to debate street corner dragonists with my cocksurety.

If I simply don't believe you when you say there's a dragon, for some reason I get added to the "believes in dragons in Joe's garage" side of the tablet.
 
I thought psionl0 was trying to make some point and tried to engage him in a debate on atheism vs. agnosticism, but he really doesn't want to debate that. No, he doesn't want to explore the nuances of "disbelief" vs. "lack of belief". He is obviously upset in some vague way about the fact that some dicitonaries define atheism as "the belief that there is no God", while others define it as "lack of belief in the existence of God", but he doesn't want to talk about why that upsets him or how it relates to any context.

Time to close the thread.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Right. Which is why since you can't tell me whether a dragon, drake, wyrn, cockarice, or Hydra doesn't exist in my garage, you cannot simply say "There is no dragon in my garage" you have to phrase it as a wishy-washy statement passive belief or I will be in the right to pitch a hissy fit and go "NO! You aren't allowed to say it that way! Those are the rules! You have to say you don't believe there is a dragon in my garage."
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I know! I know!

It's a wyvern, isn't it?
 
Olmstead said:
He is obviously upset in some vague way about the fact that some dicitonaries define atheism as "the belief that there is no God", while others define it as "lack of belief in the existence of God", but he doesn't want to talk about why that upsets him or how it relates to any context. (some snippage fore and aft)
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Nothing specific to you, Olmstead, but your post was the most recent I could address this.

I've always had a problem with capitalizing "god" as it implies that there is only one under discussion or only the one that could possibly be and therefore must be denied individually. Perfectly ok if some Christian wants to discuss their gods specifically but in a broader discussion, i think it's best to leave it lowercase so that we aren't giving unearned legitimacy to one god. All gods are on an even footing so why limit ourselves to making it specific?

So if a fundy of any stripe asks if I don't believe in their God, I can reply that I lack belief in all gods, not just theirs.

There, I"ve said it.
 
Again so much of this discussion is realizing how much of it acts as if god being the default is the rules we all agreed to follow and how much of the hostility is only because we dare to ask or answer the god question like literally every other question.
 
Olmstead said:
I thought psionl0 was trying to make some point and tried to engage him in a debate on atheism vs. agnosticism, but he really doesn't want to debate that. No, he doesn't want to explore the nuances of "disbelief" vs. "lack of belief". (more polite snippage)
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Well, dang it, Olmstead, you've brought up another point.

Theism/Atheism and Gnosticism/Agnosticism measure two different things. The first measures belief, the second measures knowledge. Here it is illustrated in one of literally hundreds of graphs you can find:



So the question becomes NOT are you atheist or agnostic but which quadrant represents you? Now we can close the book on psion10's definition gotchas.
 
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RoboTimbo said:
Nothing specific to you, Olmstead, but your post was the most recent I could address this.

I've always had a problem with capitalizing "god" as it implies that there is only one under discussion or only the one that could possibly be and therefore must be denied individually. Perfectly ok if some Christian wants to discuss their gods specifically but in a broader discussion, i think it's best to leave it lowercase so that we aren't giving unearned legitimacy to one god. All gods are on an even footing so why limit ourselves to making it specific?

So if a fundy of any stripe asks if I don't believe in their God, I can reply that I lack belief in all gods, not just theirs.

There, I"ve said it.
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The old adage - “I believe in one less god than you”
 
And again imagine the absurdity if we did this in any other topic.

"Is there beer in the fridge?"
"Let me check.. nope on beer."
"Wait... what do you mean no beer?"
"Well I looked in the fridge and there's no beer."
"Okay but are you saying you believe there is no beer or that you don't believe there is any beer?"
"I'm not saying either and those statements mean the same thing."
"Did you make up new types of beer with new characteristics and look for those?"
"Why would I do that?"
"What is your proof that there isn't any beer in the fridge?"
"What does that even mean? There's no beer. You go look if you don't believe me."
"No you made the claim that there's no beer, you have the burden of proof."
"Burden of proof on what? It's not a 'claim.' There's no beer because there is no beer. This isn't complicated."
"I have this X and Y axis chart would you please indicate where on the belief/knowledge and certainty axis your opinion sits at?
".... what?"
"We'll circle back to that. What do you hate beer? Are you just rebelling?"
"I don't... what is this?"
"Why is being right about their being beer in the fridge so important to you?"
"It's not important, you asked."
"Why can't we just compromise and say there is beer in the fridge for me and not beer in the fridge for you?"
"Because that's not how reality works."
"You're getting very emotional."
 
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