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Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

But in the actual real world in which we live, our natural and natal atheism is attacked by theists, and certainly, obviously, many accept the imposition. I contend that those who do not are doing something.

I disagree, at least if you're talking about the entire (or even most of) the group. I think that at least some are not doing something. They're not becoming convinced.

If you are asking only "what is the basic thing which all atheists have in common," then yes, lack of belief in gods is a short definition, but because actual atheists in the actual world are individuals with different stories, I think it's not informative.

I agree with this, but because it points out the problem with labels in general. If you want to have a discussion with someone ask them what they think and talk about that. To hell with the labels, they're never enough. By the time you get to the point where they actually apply to the group they don't say much about the members.

The poster who thinks he's made a gotcha because some statement doesn't match a label is just silly.
 
No and I didn't say they were.



Who says they don't ever apply? Certainly not I.

However, the wide range of valid definitions means that you cannot imply any specific flavor of atheism a priori. E.g., you cannot assume to hold me accountable for one of the more narrow definitions unless I specifically subscribe to it. For me, atheism is lack of belief in gods, period.

Hans

Sure, we can say that atheism is lack of belief in gods, period, and it is true enough no doubt. But it is a state shared by you, me, Leumas, a newborn baby, a squirrel, and a rock. Atheism is the default position of all beings that are not presented with gods, reasons to infer their existence, or assertions of their existence. And of course of all things to which the idea of belief does not apply. But in that default position it also is not a concept at all. The idea of atheism is as unknown to a baby or a squirrel as any god.

The very existence of words implies concepts to which they apply. Just to say that I do not believe in gods requires that I have an idea of what it means to believe something, and that believing is something I can do, and I have to have an idea of something that might be called a god.

If an adult human being in the world we know states that they are an atheist, then another thing has happened beyond the mere absence of belief, because the simple absence of belief of babies is so nameless and shapeless that it cannot actually be articulated at all. It is true but meaningless to say that I do not believe in things it has never occurred to me to think about at all. It is fine to say that in a perfect world that's the way it should be, and we'd all be default atheists, but it's not that way, and if it were the word "atheist" would be absent.

I contend that the definition of an atheist as simply someone who has no faith in a god, while true from one angle, is incomplete if the person uses the word "atheist," and has at least a vague idea of what he is talking about. The end result of what many of us would consider rational consideration may look the same - i.e. no gods here, never were - but as soon as you say it, you've named a flavor, whether you like it or not. Your inclusion is voluntary.

e.t.a on the question of "doing something." True, I suppose that you could say not being convinced is nothing, but I think given the pressure of society it sells character short.
 
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I disagree, at least if you're talking about the entire (or even most of) the group. I think that at least some are not doing something. They're not becoming convinced.



I agree with this, but because it points out the problem with labels in general. If you want to have a discussion with someone ask them what they think and talk about that. To hell with the labels, they're never enough. By the time you get to the point where they actually apply to the group they don't say much about the members.

The poster who thinks he's made a gotcha because some statement doesn't match a label is just silly.

Labels are useful as a good generalization. If someone IRL claims to be an atheist I have a very good idea about their position re gods. Beyond that quibbling over some details is not that interesting, or really worth the effort.

On this board I generally just like to read the comments in religion related discussions, perhaps gain a little general knowledge, and give the quibblers a little poke now and then.
 
Juror #7: Your Honor... I do not understand... you want us the Jury to find the defendant NOT guilty if the prosecution did not convince us that he is guilty?

Judge: Yes, "innocent until proven guilty" that is the law.

Juror #9: But your Honor... what if we are not convinced he is not not guilty... how can we while so agnostic about the defendant's guilt and having doubts that he might be indeed guilty... just find him innocent just because the prosecution failed to show any evidence for his culpability?

Judge: if you have no evidence that he is guilty then he is not guilty irrespective of your prejudice due to your gut feelings... guts do not count in the law... unless proven guilty he is not guilty.

Juror #11: But your Honor...

Judge: No buts or guts... not proven guilty means "not guilty"... I think your problem is that you do not understand the difference between "innocent" and "not guilty"... this court of law is not trying to prove the defendant innocent... it is trying to prove the defendant guilty... and if it has failed to prove that... then you HAVE TO find the defendant NOT guilty... regardless of your feelings and agnosticism about his innocence... your agnosticism about his guilt is all that is needed to acquit the defendant of being guilty.





In the natural world that we live in lynching was the norm and irrationality and imbecility IS the norm and the commonsense is in fact nonsense and illogic and gullibility and perfidy and sordidness.

I'm not sure how you think you are responding to what I said. I just think that, even if the end result looks the same, it makes a difference whether you do something on purpose.
 
... it makes a difference whether you do something on purpose.


Indeed... and the clueless "atheists" are just as clueless as the theist imbeciles.... these are most likely the irrational Secular Theists... and the self-righteous Agnostics and the ones who found religions repugnant for them personally.

So my point is that atheism is not at all the result of obliviousness and hapless non-thinking... rather it is a result of discerning and deliberative skepticism and rationality.




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Indeed... and the clueless "atheists" are just as clueless as the theist imbeciles.... these are most likely the irrational Secular Theists... and the self-righteous Agnostics and the ones who found religions repugnant for them personally.

So my point is that atheism is not at all the result of obliviousness and hapless non-thinking... rather it is a result of discerning and deliberative skepticism and rationality.




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It looks suspiciously as if we're agreeing here so before the bubble bursts, I think I'd better quit!
 
However, the wide range of valid definitions means that you cannot imply any specific flavor of atheism a priori. E.g., you cannot assume to hold me accountable for one of the more narrow definitions unless I specifically subscribe to it. For me, atheism is lack of belief in gods, period
The problem with defining atheism as a "lack of belief in gods" is that it could equally be defined as a "lack of belief in no gods".

There are definitely degrees of atheism but basically, once you have been introduced to the concept of gods and rejected them, it is no longer simply a "lack of belief".
 
The problem with defining atheism as a "lack of belief in gods" is that it could equally be defined as a "lack of belief in no gods".
There are definitely degrees of atheism but basically, once you have been introduced to the concept of gods and rejected them, it is no longer simply a "lack of belief".

No, it could not by any rational thinker.
 
The problem with defining atheism as a "lack of belief in gods" is that it could equally be defined as a "lack of belief in no gods".


The above statement is utterly illogical... lack of belief in tooth fairies does not also mean lack of belief in no tooth fairies.

Gods are just like tooth fairies.


There are definitely degrees of atheism but basically, once you have been introduced to the concept of gods and rejected them, it is no longer simply a "lack of belief".


More illogic....

Let me see if I can make this simpler....

A peddler tells me that the car he advertised online is in his garage which is locked and has no windows.

Now I am well introduced to the concept of charlatans and their tricks and I know what cars are.

So... should I pay him as he is demanding, the money for the car without me even being allowed to look inside the garage let alone examine the car or take it to a mechanic?

I know that a car could be indeed in the garage... and that it could very well be sound and in good condition and it could indeed be worth the asking price.

But I also know that charlatans are aplenty.... and that even if he is not a charlatan his judgement of the condition of his car could be biased and even if it is sound his estimate of the worth of the car could also be biased.

Now....

It is not that I believe the guy is a charlatan or a bad judge of his car's condition... or that it is not his car even.

It is not that I DON'T believe it either.... despite how much I wish it were so because it would be a great deal.

There are just too many factors that make it a BAD BET to bet on all of them turning out to be just right that I would not be fleeced.

So... not out of belief... and not out of lack of belief... but out of RATIONAL SANE SKEPTICISIM I decide to not take the risk of being screwed.

No matter how appealing the asking price is.... in fact... the very appeal of the price ought to be one of the major factors in DOUBTING the veracity of the deal.... no matter how much I WISH it were true.

And even if the guy relents and lets me look inside the garage but denies my bringing a mechanic to give the car a checkup... it would still be stupid of me to trust him.

And this is what atheism is... it is REFUSING TO BE DUPED by yet another scam like the numerous ones throughout the history of human perfidy and gullibility.... it is not belief or lack of belief... it is SELFRESPECT and refusing to be hoaxed.




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No, it could not by any rational thinker.

Oh c'mon. Can't Greek & Latin be mixmastered enough to allow polyatheism, non-belief in multiple gods, or monoatheism, non-acceptance of just one god? How about quasiatheism, sorta undecided belief in maybe there ain't no god(s)? Or xenoatheism, refusal to believe in foreigners' gods? Heptoatheism, refusal to belive in more than six gods? Quadroatheism, rejection of gods with 5 or more limbs? (That might be a Hindu specialization.) Or alcoholatheism, rejection of any gods who won't chug beer with psion0!! Yah!

Me, I'm a proudly defiant MINIMATHEIST! I refuse, I reject, I scorn any but the Hugest Gods! My gods tower beyond the stratosphere! Hell, they poke up so far they hafta wear insulated caps to keep from getting sunburned scalps!

I'm running out of Greek n Latin. Help me here, somebody.
 
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"Atheism" is lack of belief in gods - that's all. Because by definition "A" is the privative negating the word "theist", i.e. god(s).

It is exactly that simple.

The tedium of YATAWAM (Yet Another Thread About What Atheism Means) on the first couple of pages do turn somewhat humorous at page 5, though.

The continual inability to grasp how simple it is becomes quite funny. I always thought Dawkins' sliding scale of atheism (where I'm an 11/10) answered any possible questions someone couple have had, yet here we are.

Again...

I give it two more pages, tops.
 
The problem with defining atheism as a "lack of belief in gods" is that it could equally be defined as a "lack of belief in no gods".

No. That is nonsense, both semantically and logically. However, I understand what you are trying to say: Lack of belief on gods does not imply denial of the possibility of gods. However, that is not a problem with the definition, that is a property of this basic definition.

There are definitely degrees of atheism but basically, once you have been introduced to the concept of gods and rejected them, it is no longer simply a "lack of belief".

Yes it is. That is the only thing we can infer from the term "atheist". If you want to know why the atheist does not believe, or how adamantly they don't believe, you will have to ask additional questions.

I know all this seems like idle hair-splitting, but it is quite central for many discussions we have had, and will have here, because this is what some believers come here and do: They find some evil deeds presumably perpetrated by atheists and blame them on Atheism as such.

... I might add that there are also some atheists who find evil deeds presumably perpetrated by theists and blame them on theists in general, which is obviously not much better.

Hans
 
If it is not a "lack of belief in no gods" then it must be a "belief in no gods". Which one is it?

Neither. The basic atheist fails to believe in gods, period. Like it or not, that is how it is defined.

Hans
 
If it is not a "lack of belief in no gods" then it must be a "belief in no gods". Which one is it?

Does not have to be either. You do love your false dichotomies. My atheism is based on the complete lack of evidence for the existence of any gods. Belief, as in accepting without evidence, ie: theism, has nothing to do with it.
 
No. That is nonsense, both semantically and logically.
No, this is sound logic. You want to deny it but there is no denying logic.

Yes it is. That is the only thing we can infer from the term "atheist". If you want to know why the atheist does not believe, or how adamantly they don't believe, you will have to ask additional questions.
You can use the label "lack of belief" if a person identifies as atheist without further elaboration but not once they have answered the question "do gods exist?".

Neither. The basic atheist fails to believe in gods, period. Like it or not, that is how it is defined.
You are sticking your head in the sand.
 
After death there is nothing for us - neither misery nor happiness - just nothing. Which is also a reward - no pain, no misery, no worry, no regrets - for eternity.
You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

Sorry for being a bore - but we've still not tackled the opening post of this thread.

Why can't you be an atheist and hold that after death that there is nothing?
 
No, this is sound logic. You want to deny it but there is no denying logic.


You can use the label "lack of belief" if a person identifies as atheist without further elaboration but not once they have answered the question "do gods exist?".


You are sticking your head in the sand.

Q: Do gods exist?
A: There is no evidence that indicates that they do. So no.

Where is the belief?
 

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