Fox News knew they were lying about election

I think a negotiated plea deal is different than an order from the court.

Yes, I know that a negotiated plea deal is different than an order from the court. My question was how is ordering a defendant to stand with an embarrassing sign (forced 'speech') legally different from ordering Fox to apologize and admit lying on air (forced 'speech')?

If Fox doesn't want to possibly spend $2.7B, they will go for a plea deal like they did with Dominion. If Smartmatic holds firm on the demand that Fox apologizes, I think there is a chance Fox would agree to do it to avoid the trial.

I think FOX will very likely go for a plea deal. I think Smartmatic would be wise to accept a plea deal IF FOX apologizes and admits fault.
 
[sidenote as a followup] Instead of claiming Listerine prevents colds and flu they now advertise they kill germs that cause bad breath. It's more false advertising, the amount of alcohol in Listerine doesn't even meet the standard of being a disinfectant. There are more reasons it's a BS claim but I'll leave it at that.

Second they claimed the product prevented cavities. The association of dental floss sued asserting the ads implied flossing wasn't necessary. So Listerine added flouride to their product.[/]
 
Yes, I know that a negotiated plea deal is different than an order from the court.

Specifically it's contract law, which is pretty much whatever the parties agree to. The terms of the agreement aren't limited to statutory or constitutional provisions. You just can't force the other party to agree to something unconscionable, and that's a very low bar. If the terms of the settlement require Tucker Carlson to do his show dressed as a giant chicken for a week, and Fox agrees to that, then that's enforceable.

My question was how is ordering a defendant to stand with an embarrassing sign (forced 'speech') legally different from ordering Fox to apologize and admit lying on air (forced 'speech')?

IANAL, but I think for three reasons.

First, there's a foggy line between being compelled to do something and being compelled to say something, as far as the First Amendment goes, just as there's a foggy line between restricting speech (as expression) and restricting behavior (as expression). There's a lot of latitude for restricting behavior, and less for restricting speech. Burning the flag: speech or behavior? As anyone who's watched the Supreme Court lately can attest, courts tend to waver on whether some particular thing falls in that fog based on frankly political disposition. So the judge here can say he merely sentenced someone to "do" something (i.e., hold a sign), not say something.

Second, in other cases where this has occurred, the judge gave the convicts the option either to serve jail time or to stand and hold signs and endure the public pillory. Acceptance of the compelled-speech option can serve the legal purpose of waiving their First Amendment rights for this purpose. It's not clear this was an option for the Cleveland woman.

Finally, if a judge passes an unconstitutional sentence, it's up to the defendant to object to it and appeal it. Many defendants in municipal court appear pro se, or are at best poorly represented. They would also be assessed increased court costs for the appeal, even if they understood their constitutional rights well enough to mount a legally effective appeal. Therefore it might be an economic necessity to accept an unconstitutional penalty. A cardinal rule in court is that you are responsible for asserting your rights, and for paying for having them heard.

Giant corporations like Warner-Lambert and Fox will have armies of lawyers well aware of what sentences can be successfully challenged as unconstitutional, and well enough equipped and funded to do so. Therefore the judge or jury in these cases won't be under any delusion that they can assess a questionably constitutional relief.

I think FOX will very likely go for a plea deal. I think Smartmatic would be wise to accept a plea deal IF FOX apologizes and admits fault.

This is when it really helps to be a real lawyer to understand and predict these things. From what lawyers tell me, these things involve so much experience, complexity, and finesse that it's difficult for lay people to grasp all the nuance that happens in these negotiations.
 
Specifically it's contract law, which is pretty much whatever the parties agree to. The terms of the agreement aren't limited to statutory or constitutional provisions. You just can't force the other party to agree to something unconscionable, and that's a very low bar. If the terms of the settlement require Tucker Carlson to do his show dressed as a giant chicken for a week, and Fox agrees to that, then that's enforceable.



IANAL, but I think for three reasons.

First, there's a foggy line between being compelled to do something and being compelled to say something, as far as the First Amendment goes, just as there's a foggy line between restricting speech (as expression) and restricting behavior (as expression). There's a lot of latitude for restricting behavior, and less for restricting speech. Burning the flag: speech or behavior? As anyone who's watched the Supreme Court lately can attest, courts tend to waver on whether some particular thing falls in that fog based on frankly political disposition. So the judge here can say he merely sentenced someone to "do" something (i.e., hold a sign), not say something.

Second, in other cases where this has occurred, the judge gave the convicts the option either to serve jail time or to stand and hold signs and endure the public pillory. Acceptance of the compelled-speech option can serve the legal purpose of waiving their First Amendment rights for this purpose. It's not clear this was an option for the Cleveland woman.

Finally, if a judge passes an unconstitutional sentence, it's up to the defendant to object to it and appeal it. Many defendants in municipal court appear pro se, or are at best poorly represented. They would also be assessed increased court costs for the appeal, even if they understood their constitutional rights well enough to mount a legally effective appeal. Therefore it might be an economic necessity to accept an unconstitutional penalty. A cardinal rule in court is that you are responsible for asserting your rights, and for paying for having them heard.

Giant corporations like Warner-Lambert and Fox will have armies of lawyers well aware of what sentences can be successfully challenged as unconstitutional, and well enough equipped and funded to do so. Therefore the judge or jury in these cases won't be under any delusion that they can assess a questionably constitutional relief.



This is when it really helps to be a real lawyer to understand and predict these things. From what lawyers tell me, these things involve so much experience, complexity, and finesse that it's difficult for lay people to grasp all the nuance that happens in these negotiations.

Thanks for your response. But I still wonder why Smartmatic's lawyers would insist on a public admission by Fox if they know it's unconstitutional and could not be enforced. After all, they know Fox's lawyers will know that, too.
 
Thanks for your response. But I still wonder why Smartmatic's lawyers would insist on a public admission by Fox if they know it's unconstitutional and could not be enforced. After all, they know Fox's lawyers will know that, too.

Ah, I didn't read carefully. You mean asking for a retraction in the actual complaint, not as part of settlement negotiations.

Forcing a retraction is ostensibly unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean this might not be the case that carves out the exception. In order to do that, they have to raise the issue at the complaint level. Just because you pray for that relief doesn't mean it will be granted. But you have to ask.
 
'“We will be ready to defend this [Smartmatic] case surrounding extremely newsworthy events when it goes to trial, likely in 2025,” a Fox spokesperson said in a statement on Wednesday."

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/19/fox-smartmatic-defamation-case-dominion.html

Hoping it goes to trial for the Legaltainment, but it'll be a long wait if it does.

Is there any chance Fox will have to apologise as part of a settlement (should that happen instead)?
 
It appears that Fox have interpreted the settlement with Dominion with no apology as free rein to resume the usual bollocks: Lying and misrepresenting their chosen targets. So have they learned?

Perhaps they might appreciate getting some more lawsuits for damages from those targets asking for the same amount as Dominion and Smartmatic?? And would the individual talent like to be named specifically as defendants in these cases too?

Because one of the outcomes from the Dominion case is the precedent to sue media companies who lie, and know they lie, for massive amounts.
 
It appears that Fox have interpreted the settlement with Dominion with no apology as free rein to resume the usual bollocks: Lying and misrepresenting their chosen targets. So have they learned?

Perhaps they might appreciate getting some more lawsuits for damages from those targets asking for the same amount as Dominion and Smartmatic?? And would the individual talent like to be named specifically as defendants in these cases too?

Because one of the outcomes from the Dominion case is the precedent to sue media companies who lie, and know they lie, for massive amounts.

that could bite them in the ass with Smartmatic and others when it comes to assigning Punitive Damages:
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, a 780 million dollar settlement was not enough to make Fox more conscientious in their Reporting. It will clearly take a fine two or three orders of magnitude greater to make them feel any consequences for defaming others for profit."
 
that could bite them in the ass with Smartmatic and others when it comes to assigning Punitive Damages:
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, a 780 million dollar settlement was not enough to make Fox more conscientious in their Reporting. It will clearly take a fine two or three orders of magnitude greater to make them feel any consequences for defaming others for profit."

It would be nice if it turns out that way but that sounds like the kind of activist judge direction that could have any award overturned on appeal.
 
To poke at a different angle from Lawrence O'Donnell's and gnome's - for those who were hoping for Dominion (or any other similar voting machine companies) to be some champion of truth and democracy and somehow get a public and full airing of Fox's lies on Fox, it's worth remembering that voting machine companies have been all about profit all along, given behavior. Not really about truth, democracy, or whatever other higher principle we may wish were being upheld. Trying to argue that Dominion was forced to accept the millions feels like it's not taking that into account.

There's something comforting about a voting machine corporation not taking sides but just taking the cash and walking away.
 
There's something comforting about a voting machine corporation not taking sides but just taking the cash and walking away.

Maybe. It's less comforting when you've got, to poke at a couple of what are apparently actual examples from voting machine companies, employees saying that the coders in that industry aren't all that good at what they do, across the board, and, in response to requiring even the slightest bit of corporate transparency, a number of unnamed board members suddenly become no longer part of the board just before relevant transparency requirements become effective. It's not like these companies are immune to the forces driving corporate corruption and shenanigans, after all.

Dominion and Kemp in Georgia had a number of real issues worthy of note, at last check, for example. The backlash to the right-wing insanity targeting of Dominion can easily end up white-washing crap like that and give a distorted picture about the nature of the beast in question.
 
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Maybe. It's less comforting when you've got, to poke at a couple of what are apparently actual examples from voting machine companies, employees saying that the coders in that industry aren't all that good at what they do, across the board, and, in response to requiring even the slightest bit of corporate transparency, a number of unnamed board members suddenly become no longer part of the board just before relevant transparency requirements become effective. It's not like these companies are immune to the forces driving corporate corruption and shenanigans, after all.
Somebody should prosecute them if they step out of line legally, when they do not play by the rules. Absolutely.

But what I'm not seeing is this supposedly bumbling company telling lies and smearing another company, repeatedly, in public, with malice, over an extended period, leaving a wide thick trail of evidence proving same.
 
that could bite them in the ass with Smartmatic and others when it comes to assigning Punitive Damages:
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, a 780 million dollar settlement was not enough to make Fox more conscientious in their Reporting. It will clearly take a fine two or three orders of magnitude greater to make them feel any consequences for defaming others for profit."
Just add a nought to the number on that check, Rupe...
 
Maybe. It's less comforting when you've got, to poke at a couple of what are apparently actual examples from voting machine companies, employees saying that the coders in that industry aren't all that good at what they do, across the board, and, in response to requiring even the slightest bit of corporate transparency, a number of unnamed board members suddenly become no longer part of the board just before relevant transparency requirements become effective. It's not like these companies are immune to the forces driving corporate corruption and shenanigans, after all.

Dominion and Kemp in Georgia had a number of real issues worthy of note, at last check, for example. The backlash to the right-wing insanity targeting of Dominion can easily end up white-washing crap like that and give a distorted picture about the nature of the beast in question.

A fair point. Though not directly the topic, it's germane to the reason the lies got told in the first place. The voters have to take others word for it that the machines are trustworthy, in a way that slips of paper don't.
 
I don't think you can separate the two so easily.

I can and I will. We all have to or we're all ******.

The entire core push of the post-fact world is to make no distinction between an opinion being wrong and it simply being unpopular.
 
that could bite them in the ass with Smartmatic and others when it comes to assigning Punitive Damages:
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, a 780 million dollar settlement was not enough to make Fox more conscientious in their Reporting. It will clearly take a fine two or three orders of magnitude greater to make them feel any consequences for defaming others for profit."

A point of clarity. I think you meant 2X or 3X larger. Because 2 or 3 orders is 100X or 1,000X larger. An order or magnitude being 10. ;)
 
Looks like Smartmatic won't settle with FOX unless an apology and retraction are included:

DON LEMON: In the Dominion settlement with Fox, there was no requirement for Fox to make an apology, nor a retraction. Would you walk away from an offer from Fox if it didn’t include an on air retraction or apology? Because, as I understand, you told my colleague Jake Tapper you want a retraction and you want an apology, would you walk away from an offer that didn’t include those?
ERIK CONNOLLY: Whatever you think about a settlement, if that’s where these kinds of cases go, you have to think about whether the company is going to be in this business for the long term. Smartmatic is in this business for the long term. Their reputation has been injured. And if you don’t have a retraction, if you don’t have an apology, it is so much more difficult for them to get back to where they were previously. They don’t want to exit the election business. This is what they’ve spent their lives doing. So I think when you’re talking about a settlement, if you go down that road, I think you need to have something in there that will help them publicly get back the messaging that they want it to be on, which is we are the company you go to for secure, accurate and reliable voting.
DON LEMON: And if there is a settlement, you would get to decide in some way what a retraction or an apology would look like on air. What would that look like to you at this point?

ERIK CONNOLLY: It’s too soon for me to tell what that would look like. That would be part of any negotiations we do and we’re not close to that.
 

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