Split Thread Atheism and lack of belief in the afterlife

[psionl0]

After death there is nothing for us - neither misery nor happiness - just nothing. Which is also a reward - no pain, no misery, no worry, no regrets - for eternity.

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Look at the example of Job.

Ah yes, the Book of Job. Someone managed to slip a story into in the bible that mocks the very idea of a God worth worshiping. Whoever wrote it was clearly an atheist, and the hastily pasted in 'reward' at the end didn't negate the message.

the point is, bad things happen to good people and often their blessings are not readily evident.

The point is, bad things happen to good people because there is no God. And no Satan either, and they aren't making bets on whether your faith will survive all the horrible things they do to you. Which is quite a relief actually. Knowing that you aren't the plaything of supernatural beings makes it a lot easier to get on with handling the real world, which we can make better by ourselves if we try.

Can you prove we don't live forever?

I have a method that can prove you don't live forever. It wouldn't convince you though - because you wouldn't be around to know it. That's the problem with the afterlife - millions of people realize at the moment of death that there isn't one, but being dead they can't tell us about it.

 

[psionl0]

That's the problem with the afterlife - millions of people realize at the moment of death that there isn't one, but being dead they can't tell us about it.

Source?

 

[wollery]

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

Either you don’t understand the meaning of the word atheist, or you were trying to make a joke and failed, or it was a pathetic attempt at trolling.

Whichever it is, it’s a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

It's not a belief, it's scientific fact combined with logic. The mind is an emergent property of the brain. When the brain dies the mind is destroyed, so there is nowhere for emotions like misery or happiness to reside. There is no need to 'believe' that, simple observation tells you it's true.

Of course if you choose to believe a fantasy instead then anything goes. But an infinity of happiness is a silly fantasy. As Captain Kirk said in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier:-

“You know that pain and guilt can’t be taken away with the wave of a magic wand! They’re the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don’t want my pain taken away, I need my pain!”​

 

[Norman Alexander]

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

Atheist = a-theist = NOT( belief in any god/gods ). So atheism specifically involves the concept of "god/gods", not just any old belief in anything at all. Atheists can believe in many things, but they are atheists specifically because they do not believe in god/gods.

I also suspect I did not have to explain this to you.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Source?

Like I said, canvassing the dead to find out that they thought about it is a bit tricky. However numerous studies of people who 'died' and were revived again have shown that around 5-10% experienced a 'near death experience' of things like going to a place of light and peace, being outside their bodies, talking to dead relatives etc. There's plenty of literature about this on the 'net.

But nobody focuses on the 90-95% who didn't have such experiences. I bet if you canvassed all the people who had been in situations where they were sure they were about to die, many of them would say the afterlife was the last thing on their mind. And you can put me on that list.

 

[Foster Zygote]

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

You might want to run that back through your head a few times.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Like I said, canvassing the dead to find out that they thought about it is a bit tricky. However numerous studies of people who 'died' and were revived again have shown that around 5-10% experienced a 'near death experience' of things like going to a place of light and peace, being outside their bodies, talking to dead relatives etc. There's plenty of literature about this on the 'net.

Fighter pilots and astronauts who undergo high g training to the point of blacking out often report similar experiences, strongly suggesting that they are simply symptoms of hypoxia.

 

[psionl0]

Either you don’t understand the meaning of the word atheist, or you were trying to make a joke and failed, or it was a pathetic attempt at trolling.....

..... or it could just be a simple exercise in logic.

Since the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods, I fail to see how a person who does not have an actual belief that there are no gods can nevertheless have a firm belief that there is no afterlife.

 

[psionl0]

It's not a belief, it's scientific fact combined with logic. The mind is an emergent property of the brain. When the brain dies the mind is destroyed, so there is nowhere for emotions like misery or happiness to reside. There is no need to 'believe' that, simple observation tells you it's true.

That is predicated on the assumption that there are no gods/deities who could reconstruct this "emergent property" in some form or other.

If you are not going to come straight out and say "there are absolutely no gods" then you don't have a basis for saying that an afterlife is impossible.

Like I said, canvassing the dead to find out that they thought about it is a bit tricky. However numerous studies of people who 'died' and were revived again have shown that around 5-10% experienced a 'near death experience' of things like going to a place of light and peace, being outside their bodies, talking to dead relatives etc. There's plenty of literature about this on the 'net.

Yes, there are no reliable reports of anybody coming back to life (or at least none of any dead person living a new life on Earth).

But NDEs don't count because the person didn't actually die. As I understand it, the mind plays out a "final scene" at the point of death and this seems to be what people who had an NDE have reported.

 

[wollery]

..... or it could just be a simple exercise in logic.

Since the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods, I fail to see how a person who does not have an actual belief that there are no gods can nevertheless have a firm belief that there is no afterlife.

Congratulations, you just flunked logic 101.

No, seriously, reread it. When you've managed to spot the problematic double negative, and figured out how it messes up your response to an atheist, then you can get back to us.

 

[psionl0]

Congratulations, you just flunked logic 101.

What an illogical thing to say .....

Of course you won't point out the flaws in my post because there are none.

 

[zooterkin]

..... or it could just be a simple exercise in logic.

Since the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods, I fail to see how a person who does not have an actual belief that there are no gods can nevertheless have a firm belief that there is no afterlife.

 

[wollery]

What an illogical thing to say .....

Of course you won't point out the flaws in my post because there are none.

In your response you describe an atheist as “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are no gods”. That’s describing a theist.

An atheist is either “a person who does have a firm belief that there are no gods” or “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are gods”.

As I said, the double negative is problematic, and why on earth you’d think it at all odd that an atheist doesn’t believe in an afterlife is truly baffling.

 

[psionl0]

In your response you describe an atheist as “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are no gods”. That’s describing a theist.

An atheist is either “a person who does have a firm belief that there are no gods” or “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are gods”.

As I said, the double negative is problematic, and why on earth you’d think it at all odd that an atheist doesn’t believe in an afterlife is truly baffling.

That is not my definition. AFAIK the common description of an atheist is still "somebody who believes that there are no gods". However, in this forum, the preferred definition is somebody who "lacks belief (in gods)".

If you "lack belief" in any gods then you should also "lack belief" in any form of afterlife (as distinct from believing that there is no afterlife).

 

[Norman Alexander]

..... or it could just be a simple exercise in logic.

Since the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods...

Intertwined in some people's minds, but they are not the same thing nor indivisible. Plenty of beliefs have an afterlife but not gods. The afterlife is a part of animism, for example, and there is no god-belief involved there, only spiritualism. So in a strict interpretation, animism is atheistic.

But since theism does not preclude other beliefs, atheism does not necessarily imply rational logical thoughts either. Easiest example is Donald Trump, who believes primarily in himself and also all his paranoia and whacky notions about elections and so on, but has demonstrated not a whit of any god-fearing religious belief. So technically, Trump is an atheist. But he is also clinically insane by all accounts.

...I fail to see how a person who does not have an actual belief that there are no gods can nevertheless have a firm belief that there is no afterlife.

Then you fail to research much.

 

[Olmstead]

That is not my definition. AFAIK the common description of an atheist is still "somebody who believes that there are no gods". However, in this forum, the preferred definition is somebody who "lacks belief (in gods)".

If you "lack belief" in any gods then you should also "lack belief" in any form of afterlife (as distinct from believing that there is no afterlife).

That's just semantic nonsense, because theists like to play word games.

I don't believe in Cthulhu. Or do I lack belief in Cthulhu?

Hey, maybe I do live in Lovecraft's world, and this is all just a dream caused by the awakening of the Great Old One. Solipsism is a hell of a drug.

 

[wollery]

Here's the full sequence of posts -

That's where you are wrong. After death there is nothing for us - neither misery nor happiness - just nothing. Which is also a reward - no pain, no misery, no worry, no regrets - for eternity.

Roger Ramjets says that there is no afterlife, although it's a snip from a much longer post about not wanting a religious aspect to funeral services.

You can't be an atheist if you believe that because it is not a "lack of belief".

Your response here is strange, to suggest that a lack of belief in an afterlife isn't a "lack of belief", and that it precludes him being an atheist, since the definition of atheism is "a lack of belief in a deity", not just "a lack of belief". Even stranger since he was demonstrating "a lack of belief" both in god and an afterlife.

Either you don’t understand the meaning of the word atheist, or you were trying to make a joke and failed, or it was a pathetic attempt at trolling.

Whichever it is, it’s a ridiculous thing to say.

I point out it's ridiculous.

..... or it could just be a simple exercise in logic.

Since the concept of an afterlife is closely intertwined with the concept of gods, I fail to see how a person who does not have an actual belief that there are no gods can nevertheless have a firm belief that there is no afterlife.

I fail to see where Roger Ramjets said he doesn't have a belief in no gods. That would make him a theist, but he was espousing distinctly atheistic views,

Congratulations, you just flunked logic 101.

No, seriously, reread it. When you've managed to spot the problematic double negative, and figured out how it messes up your response to an atheist, then you can get back to us.

I point out the oddity of your response.

What an illogical thing to say .....

Of course you won't point out the flaws in my post because there are none.

Won't I? Doesn't it?

In your response you describe an atheist as “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are no gods”. That’s describing a theist.

An atheist is either “a person who does have a firm belief that there are no gods” or “a person who does not have a firm belief that there are gods”.

As I said, the double negative is problematic, and why on earth you’d think it at all odd that an atheist doesn’t believe in an afterlife is truly baffling.

Oh look, I pointed out the flaws in your post, because it is fundamentally flawed.

That is not my definition.

I was quoting you, verbatim, from your response to Roger Ramjets, who was taking an atheist position. That's why your response seemed so strange!

AFAIK the common description of an atheist is still "somebody who believes that there are no gods". However, in this forum, the preferred definition is somebody who "lacks belief (in gods)".

Both of which definitions are given (paraphrasing your earlier quote) in my post!!

If you "lack belief" in any gods then you should also "lack belief" in any form of afterlife (as distinct from believing that there is no afterlife).

Which is exactly the position Roger Ramjets was taking in the first place, thus rendering your entire argument moot!

 

[Darat]

It's even crazier - afterlife doesn't mean god - they are not synonyms for each other. You could not believe in a god but still believe in an afterlife, and of course vice-a-versa.

Believing or not in an afterlife is a different thing from believing or not in a god or gods.