Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm sure denying their basic identity is part of it, but it's also about having a safe place to go to the bathroom while in public. A trans-woman in a men's room or a trans-man in a woman's room may face aggressive hostility.

Completely irrelevant to the post I was responding to and the point I was making - which was based on the scenario in which there would be women's, men's and unisex washrooms and transgender persons would use the unisex washrooms solving all the current problems in a simple way.

I responded that such a 'solution' will not work.

Now, I have known transgender people going back more than 25 years. During that time most would be opting for the unisex washroom. For instance they would plan going out in the evening around knowing where suitable toilets were. In most cases it seemed that this was more under the desire to ensure that they did not make others uncomfortable than any significant concern for their own safety. This is a bit inconvenient for them, but many people have to make plans for themselves. Just, as an example, vegans, who have to plan around where they can and can't eat, people who have certain health problems etc.

The others of those I know/knew (minority in the past, probably majority today) were not interested in going into unisex washrooms. In some cases it was because they passed quite well. But more often then not it was because they felt it confirmed their basic identity (or in some cases, they seemed to get a bit of a rise out of making certain types of people uncomfortable).
 
I was making the same point as Chappelle and someone here tried to counter it with a quote from Chappelle. That person missed it.

Chappelle got it at least. All the people who think that understanding the experience of transgender people is merely a matter of recognising that gender dysphoria is real also missed it

And allies of the trans community also missed that Chappelle wasn't going the full gender critical.

What is the experience of transgender people that is outside of recognition of gender dysphoria and compassion for that suffering? Specifically, what do you think the gender critical side is actually really missing?
 
Completely irrelevant to the post I was responding to and the point I was making - which was based on the scenario in which there would be women's, men's and unisex washrooms and transgender persons would use the unisex washrooms solving all the current problems in a simple way.

I responded that such a 'solution' will not work.

Now, I have known transgender people going back more than 25 years. During that time most would be opting for the unisex washroom. For instance they would plan going out in the evening around knowing where suitable toilets were. In most cases it seemed that this was more under the desire to ensure that they did not make others uncomfortable than any significant concern for their own safety. This is a bit inconvenient for them, but many people have to make plans for themselves. Just, as an example, vegans, who have to plan around where they can and can't eat, people who have certain health problems etc.

The others of those I know/knew (minority in the past, probably majority today) were not interested in going into unisex washrooms. In some cases it was because they passed quite well. But more often then not it was because they felt it confirmed their basic identity (or in some cases, they seemed to get a bit of a rise out of making certain types of people uncomfortable).

Your assessment seems substantially accurate. I'll add a minor caveat that the transgender people of 25 years ago have surprisingly little in common with transgender people of the past 10 years. A substantial portion of the current crop seem to be ideologically more in line with the "affirms their identity and/or makes females uncomfortable" crew.

Never 100%, but that view, that behavioral profile, seems to dominate newer transgender identities.
 
That doesn't follow at all! I would say that your extrapolation is harmful and extremist.

There are a LOT of people that I think are unsavory, even a very few that I genuinely feel hatred toward (for me, hate is an extremely strong emotion, and one I rarely have). But even for those I think are the absolute worst of the worst who probably have bodies buried under their front porch, I would not on them the treatment that KJK has received.

What "treatment"? She got shouted down by people who disagreed with her and got a tomato juice stain her clothes.. what a poor widdle snowflake!

While I am opposed to the idea of intact males being allowed to use women's toilets facilities, and opposed to the idea of intact males being allowed to compete against women in women's sport, I am far more strongly opposed to people who use hate and vilification, and who have far right racists and Nazis on her side, in order to get their message out.

I put Posie Parker in the same category as Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Lauren Boebert and (for Kiwi readers) Sue Grey, Brian Tamaki and Liz Gunn.
 
The statistics regulator is examining concerns that the data behind landmark census figures on the UK’s transgender population may be flawed.

Academics have queried findings by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) that 262,000 people identify as transgender in England and Wales.

Michael Biggs, a professor of sociology at the University of Oxford, believes the question posed to record the gender identity of respondents may have confused those whose first language is not English. Overall, those who speak English poorly were found to be five times more likely to be transgender, prompting concerns about the data.

https://archive.ph/0qFOt
 
The statistics regulator is examining concerns that the data behind landmark census figures on the UK’s transgender population may be flawed.

Academics have queried findings by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) that 262,000 people identify as transgender in England and Wales.

Michael Biggs, a professor of sociology at the University of Oxford, believes the question posed to record the gender identity of respondents may have confused those whose first language is not English. Overall, those who speak English poorly were found to be five times more likely to be transgender, prompting concerns about the data.

https://archive.ph/0qFOt

This would be no surprise at all. People with a first language other than English could be forgiven for not understanding what transgender really is. In some spell checkers (like the one I use) the word “transwoman” is not even recognised.
 
First language be damned, imagine trying to explain "transgender" and "gender identity" to a well-educated psychologist or doctor from around when David ReimerWP was born. You'd have to get them to believe that everyone has an innate sense of themselves as female or male or neither, and that this sense of self cannot be changed exogenously (e.g. by learning or imitation) but may itself change spontaneously and—jumping from is to ought here—that this identity must be socially validated no matter what consequences might follow to social institutions predicated on the sex dichotomy.

For the purposes of this thought experiment, you are allowed to smuggle backwards in time any relevant publications testing the key hypotheses under contention. Good luck packing your bags!
 
Last edited:
While I am opposed to the idea of intact males being allowed to use women's toilets facilities, and opposed to the idea of intact males being allowed to compete against women in women's sport, I am far more strongly opposed to people who use hate and vilification...
Speaking of vilification, I remember one time Keen-Minshull got so worked up about the threat posed by "men who claim to be women and enter girls' private spaces" that she advocated using defensive measures like pepper spray. Needless to say, she was shouted down by a mob carrying "THESE BOOTS STOP TERFS" signs so hopefully no one took heed.
 
Speaking of vilification, I remember one time Keen-Minshull got so worked up about the threat posed by "men who claim to be women and enter girls' private spaces" that she advocated using defensive measures like pepper spray. Needless to say, she was shouted down by a mob carrying "THESE BOOTS STOP TERFS" signs so hopefully no one took heed.


Their response is a reaction to her gay-bashing hate and vitriol, so I find it fully understandable that they give it back in kind.
 
Any examples of her "gay-bashing hate" for those who are skeptical?

Pretty much everything she says is LGBTQ rhetoric. The gay bashing hate comes as a result of what she does - she attacks the collective group (as in the LGBTQ community), and gays are the L & G in LGBTQ part of the group, so by default she is attacking them too.

But the biggest issue for me is the result of the LGBTQ hate she stirs up among the far right Nazis who support her (which is of course, the actual point. It is the reason why she does what she does).

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/08/posie-parker-kellie-jay-keen-minshull-anti-trans-online-hate/

"Research collected by independent NZ body The Disinformation Project found that transphobic rhetoric reached “genocidal” levels following the tour by British anti-trans activist Posie Parker, whose real name is Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull."

In Melbourne, Keen-Minshull and ‘gender-critical’ activists were joined by neo-Nazis, leading to condemnation from Victoria premier Dan Andrews.

Following the chaotic event, Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa told RNZ that the subsequent spike in online hatred directed at trans people was unlike anything he had ever seen.

“They are being hounded, harassed, harmed and hated upon online – to a degree we’ve never studied before,” he said.

“Something that we’ve never seen before is the import of content from Australian neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, antisemitic networks and their personal networks, into New Zealand.”

In the weeks following the ‘Let Women Speak’ tour, researchers found that the anti-trans content being shared had become “extraordinarily violent”.

Hattotuwa added that there is an “extremely strong correlation” between hate speech and real-life violence against marginalised groups like the trans community.​

As I have previously made clear, I agree with much of her position (e.g. the parts as regards transwomen being allowed in women's safe spaces and women's sports) but I am 100% opposed to the way she goes about it.
 
Pretty much everything she says is LGBTQ rhetoric. The gay bashing hate comes as a result of what she does - she attacks the collective group (as in the LGBTQ community), and gays are the L & G in LGBTQ part of the group, so by default she is attacking them too.

But the biggest issue for me is the result of the LGBTQ hate she stirs up among the far right Nazis who support her (which is of course, the actual point. It is the reason why she does what she does).

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/08/posie-parker-kellie-jay-keen-minshull-anti-trans-online-hate/

"Research collected by independent NZ body The Disinformation Project found that transphobic rhetoric reached “genocidal” levels following the tour by British anti-trans activist Posie Parker, whose real name is Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull."

In Melbourne, Keen-Minshull and ‘gender-critical’ activists were joined by neo-Nazis, leading to condemnation from Victoria premier Dan Andrews.

Following the chaotic event, Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa told RNZ that the subsequent spike in online hatred directed at trans people was unlike anything he had ever seen.

“They are being hounded, harassed, harmed and hated upon online – to a degree we’ve never studied before,” he said.

“Something that we’ve never seen before is the import of content from Australian neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, antisemitic networks and their personal networks, into New Zealand.”

In the weeks following the ‘Let Women Speak’ tour, researchers found that the anti-trans content being shared had become “extraordinarily violent”.

Hattotuwa added that there is an “extremely strong correlation” between hate speech and real-life violence against marginalised groups like the trans community.​

As I have previously made clear, I agree with much of her position (e.g. the parts as regards transwomen being allowed in women's safe spaces and women's sports) but I am 100% opposed to the way she goes about it.
I noted hate speech towards KJK before she arrived in NZ and real life violence by trans radical activists towards her and those who assembled to hear her in Albert Park.
I posted the link to Yvonne Dongen's article in the Australian Spectator. She is a serious writer who can no longer get media space in NZ because of the limitation of voices by critics of those matters you agree on.
She called the police from her position, fearing for her own safety and they refused to respond.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much everything she says is LGBTQ rhetoric. The gay bashing hate comes as a result of what she does - she attacks the collective group (as in the LGBTQ community), and gays are the L & G in LGBTQ part of the group, so by default she is attacking them too.
I'm not sure why you'd expect she shares your assumption about which letters ought to be grouped together and why. I was asking specifically what she said against gays and lesbians, and I'm going to assuming your real answer here is "I have no idea."

It is the reason why she does what she does...
This assertion is the sort of thing that would be all the better if supported by evidence, such as actual quotes which seem designed to stir up the sort of hate you're talking about here.
 
Last edited:
I'm not a big fan of conflating opposition to LGBT with opposition to gay individuals.

There are a lot of LGBs out there who have been fooled into letting their movement become a trojan horse for the toxic, misogynistic brand of T activism that we're trying to push back on.

As long as there are LGBs committed to making common cause with Ts (which they shouldn't; the two categories aren't actually analogous), there's necessarily going to be opposition to the LGBT cause as a whole. Because it includes the T cause and works to further the T cause.

I don't consider homosexuals to be problematic. But I do consider homosexuals who see themselves as part of the LGBT movement to be part of the T problem. If you're on the side of LGBT, then you're on the wrong side of history, in my opinion. Being L, G, or B yourself doesn't erase that.
 
My homework for the KJK visit was her most recent event, Hobart.
There was an extended speech by a lesbian.
 
Pretty much everything she says is LGBTQ rhetoric. The gay bashing hate comes as a result of what she does - she attacks the collective group (as in the LGBTQ community), and gays are the L & G in LGBTQ part of the group, so by default she is attacking them too.

But the biggest issue for me is the result of the LGBTQ hate she stirs up among the far right Nazis who support her (which is of course, the actual point. It is the reason why she does what she does).

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/08/posie-parker-kellie-jay-keen-minshull-anti-trans-online-hate/

"Research collected by independent NZ body The Disinformation Project found that transphobic rhetoric reached “genocidal” levels following the tour by British anti-trans activist Posie Parker, whose real name is Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull."

In Melbourne, Keen-Minshull and ‘gender-critical’ activists were joined by neo-Nazis, leading to condemnation from Victoria premier Dan Andrews.

Following the chaotic event, Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa told RNZ that the subsequent spike in online hatred directed at trans people was unlike anything he had ever seen.

“They are being hounded, harassed, harmed and hated upon online – to a degree we’ve never studied before,” he said.

“Something that we’ve never seen before is the import of content from Australian neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, antisemitic networks and their personal networks, into New Zealand.”

In the weeks following the ‘Let Women Speak’ tour, researchers found that the anti-trans content being shared had become “extraordinarily violent”.

Hattotuwa added that there is an “extremely strong correlation” between hate speech and real-life violence against marginalised groups like the trans community.​

As I have previously made clear, I agree with much of her position (e.g. the parts as regards transwomen being allowed in women's safe spaces and women's sports) but I am 100% opposed to the way she goes about it.

First off, Pink News has an incredibly biased view on anything that touches on Transgender issues. Based on how Pink has reported things over the past couple of years, you yourself would be classed as an extremist nazi who is trying to genocide all transgender people worldwide. So you might want to consider that their representation of things might be a bit exaggerated.

Secondly... The link in Pink's article to The Disinformation Project, that Pink claims shows this skyrocketing vilification doesn't support Pink's claim. It's a research paper published in Nov 2022, sutdying misogyny.
https://thedisinfoproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Dangerous-speech-misogyny-and-democracy.pdf

Third, the quotes attributed to Dr. Sanjana Hattotuwa are sourced from RNZ News. All of the quotes that RNZ reports are snippets attributed to Dr. Hattotuwa, none of the quotes actually specify transgender individuals as the target. RNZ includes a lot of views attributed to Dr. Hattotuwa which lack quotes.

For consideration, Pink News says this:
Hattotuwa added that there is an “extremely strong correlation” between hate speech and real-life violence against marginalised groups like the trans community.
Whereas RNZ says this:
Hattotuwa said there was an "extremely strong correlation" between online hate and the possibility of physical violence.
RNZ's article contains no direct attribution of violence toward transgender people.

Furthermore, The Disinformation Project's site does not contain any new research of the sort claimed by Pink. Pink says:
Research collected by independent NZ body The Disinformation Project found that transphobic rhetoric reached “genocidal” levels following the tour by British anti-trans activist Posie Parker, whose real name is Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull.
But no such new research appears to be in evidence. I suppose it's marginally possible that The Disinformation Project has a bunch of new research that supports this, and that they have chosen ONLY to release their information to Pink, but it seems unlikely.

Thirdly, Pink frames this as if the ONLY vitriol is that which is aimed at transgender people. And I am certain there is plenty of it - there are some truly hateful people out there. The problem with reporting like Pink's is that it is entirely one-sided. And it either completely ignores, or it handwaves away, or it makes excuses for the hatred, harassment, and violence coming FROM the transgender activist side of this conflict.

If you don't believe that such exists, I can provide you with a large collection of screenshots of the inciteful and hateful things said to females by transgender people.

Beyond that, there's the fact that there are dozens of transgender rights meetings and rallies and days of remembrance and visibility etc. There is not one single instance of a transgender rights meeting being disrupted by females who are shouting down the speakers, threatening attendees, or even hassling them. There has not yet been an organized group of females coming together with the intent of making speakers for transgender rights feel unwelcome. On the other hand, however, nearly every instance of females getting together to discussion OUR rights is attended by hordes of transgender activists who heckle, yell, harass, intimidate, and even physically attack female attendees.

FFS, a meeting arranged to talk about the plight of females in Iran and Afghanistan had to be shut down... because apparently talking about the abuses that those middle eastern females face as a result of them being female is considered "hateful" because it is focused on females and doesn't include transgender identified females.
 
Jesse Singal just unlocked a good critique of this study.

Maybe It’s A Bad Idea To Give A Bunch Of Kids Double Mastectomies Without Checking Whether It Helps Them

Among other things, the study didn't use any validated measures of mental health and used a non-validated scale of chest dysphoria which essentially just measures whether patients are unhappy about having breasts before surgery and less unhappy about having breasts once they no longer have them.

Singal just posted further information about this study.

Here’s More Evidence That Youth Gender Medicine Researchers Might Be Hiding Unfavorable Data From The Public


The concern was the that study did not report any validated measures of mental health - only 'chest dysphoria', which essentially measured whether patients were reported feeling less unhappy at the thought of having breasts after they no longer had them. Singal stated “The complete absence of these measures in the study itself made me wonder if maybe the researchers had collected this data at baseline but simply chose not to report it because the trajectories were not what they wanted".

He subsequently made a FOI request to the University of Illinois and obtained a small amount of additional information - study description and consent forms, which showed the that study did apparently take a measure of gender dysphoria in addition to 'chest dysphoria'. The clinical trial description for the study also mentions this.

"The investigators hypothesize that masculinizing top surgery (e.g., mastectomy and chest masculinization) leads to an improvement in self-report chest dysphoria, gender dysphoria, and gender congruence in assigned-female-at-birth, transgender and non-binary youth and young adults..... Participants will complete a set of standard of care questionnaires regarding their chest dysphoria (e.g., distress about the chest), gender dysphoria (e.g., distress about a gender identity that does not match assigned sex), and gender congruence (e.g., degree to which an individual feels they are living in their authentic appearance and gender identity). They will complete this same set of questionnaires either three months after their top surgery or three months after the initial set of surveys."

However, there is no mention of the results for GD measure in the final publication which states: “We were interested in measuring gender congruence, chest dysphoria, and body image.”

This echoes a study Singal wrote about previously, where results for six of the eight variables mentioned in the pre-registration were never reported.
 
Failing to report on every single hypothesis is automatically suspect. The whole point in pre-registration is to prevent overinflation of results due to selective hypothesis retention.
 
Last edited:
Failing to report on every single hypothesis is automatically suspect. The whole point in pre-registration is to prevent overinflation of results do to selective hypothesis retention.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Yes. Unfortunately it still appears there is a way to go to ensure there are consequences for not reporting all outcomes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom