Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[smartcooky]

The prime Minister now carries the flag for John Doe.
John is going to prison in July.
On June 16 he can change his birth certificate sex to female without needing any 2nd party .
He will serve his sentence in a female facility.
When released he will change his birth certificate sex to male.

This is.law in New Zealand.

Fine. If he want to do that let him.

I don't know if you have ever seen some of the women in those women's prisons - such as the Auckland Region Women's Corrections Facility in Manukau but I promise you, I would not want to be a guy trying to be a woman and then get chucked in with that lot. He'll be damned lucky if he exits with his gonads still attached!

 

[Samson]

Fine. If he want to do that let him.

I don't know if you have ever seen some of the women in those women's prisons - such as the Auckland Region Women's Corrections Facility in Manukau but I promise you, I would not want to be a guy trying to be a woman and then get chucked in with that lot. He'll be damned lucky if he exits with his gonads still attached!

I have heard that too these gals are vicious.
Still, the law is obviously ridiculous if above scenario is true.
You can change sex every day.

 

[smartcooky]

Nothing sexist about calling females hysterical when they ask for their own spaces, am I right bro?

ETA: Let's ask the people who lost to Lia Thomas about equity.

Or Kate Weatherly, the NZ trans mountain biker who was always in the bottom half of the field when competing with other men. Now, he wipes the floor with all his actual female competitors through having grown up a male, therefore going through male puberty, and is anatomically still male, and therefore is visibly physically bigger and stronger than those he is competing against.

I'd love to know how it can be considered fair for all those ambitious girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in their chosen sport, only for some man to come along and take their dreams away? Perhaps London John can explain the equity in this.

 

[Aber]

Licensed swimming competitions fall into "sub-elite competition", because they're direct feeders into elite-level swimming.

Licensed swimming competitions cover ALL competitive swimming, apart from intra-club competitions (which are in effect glorified training sessions).

It's on the borderline.

It would definitely cover inter college swimming competitions in the US.

 

[Samson]

Or Kate Weatherly, the NZ trans mountain biker who was always in the bottom half of the field when competing with other men. Now, he wipes the floor with all his actual female competitors through having grown up a male, therefore going through male puberty, and is anatomically still male, and therefore is visibly physically bigger and stronger than those he is competing against.

I'd love to know how it can be considered fair for all those ambitious girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in their chosen sport, only for some man to come along and take their dreams away? Perhaps London John can explain the equity in this.

Here is an extended story on Weatherly

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

It proves that everyone involved has their lives screwed, parents, kids ,psychologists, sports admins, girls who wished to win.

And for my money on the evidence in the story, Weatherly was happy as a male until the psychs got at him.

 

[The Atheist]

Or Kate Weatherly, the NZ trans mountain biker who was always in the bottom half of the field when competing with other men. Now, he wipes the floor with all his actual female competitors through having grown up a male, therefore going through male puberty, and is anatomically still male, and therefore is visibly physically bigger and stronger than those he is competing against.

I pointed that one out years ago in this thread.

The controlling board of mountain biking in NZ should be walking around with their heads hung in shame. It's a ******* outrage that they allowed it to happen, destroying the careers of several young women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The opinion of trans people is no more represented by any "group" than is yours or mine we would only ever know if there was some sort of survey.

My guess is that most trans women would not want to be able to force themselves into women's sport, but I really don't know and neither does anyone else at the moment unless there is some properly conducted survey.

Your guess ends up being pretty much irrelevant, when the organizations speaking on behalf of transgender identified people keep being successful at getting policies in place that allow males to compete against females in sports, as long as those males profess to having a gendery soul.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Neither side of this debate appear to have any good arguments.

The gender critical side mostly don't seem to want to admit that being trans is a real experience that people have. They also don't seem to want to admit that what needs to be tackled are the societal attitudes that are driving this

Baloney.

Gender dysphoria is a real condition. I don't know any gender critical person who does NOT accept that it's a real condition, nor any who believe that people suffering from that condition should in any way be denied appropriate medical and psychiatric care.

That said... a person suffering from gender dysphoria does not ACTUALLY become the opposite sex, and their mental health condition is not a sufficient reason to override and destroy the rights of females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But on the other hand Chappelle did make the same point about a trans people that I just did. A lot of people missed that about him.

What group of people do you think missed it?

The question is, what do we want transgender people to do?

A. Behave according to societal expectations of their birth sex or

B. Behave as they wish but acknowledge their biological sex for the purposes of sports, women only areas and dating people who have a preference for a particular biological sex..

I would go with B, but others might have different ideas.

So do the overwhelming majority of Gender Critical people of both sexes.
Welcome to the TERF Brigade, Commrade!

I have already said I agreed with that a number of times. If the gender critical side stuck to those kinds of points then I would have no complaint.

What kind of points to do you thing the "gender critical side" has been using? Because from where I'm standing, THOSE ARE THE EXACT POSITIONS THAT GENDER CRITICAL PEOPLE TAKE.

ETA: You also have left off the Trans-activist position:

C. Behave like the social expectations of a sexist society, but as regards the opposite sex, and then because they conform to those stereotypes, they get to participate in "women's sports" and use the "women's facilities", and they get to insist that people have "gender orientations" when it comes to sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've only ever seen old school conservatives seriously arguing for this approach.

The approach has generally been described as:

Traditionalists: The women do the dishes.
Feminists: Anyone can do the dishes.
Trans-Activists: Whoever does the dishes is the woman.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm sure denying their basic identity is part of it, but it's also about having a safe place to go to the bathroom while in public. A trans-woman in a men's room or a trans-man in a woman's room may face aggressive hostility.

Genuine question: Why is it that the desire to feel safe is of tantamount importance when deciding to grant a subset of males the privilege of transgressing female boundaries... but the desire to feel safe is irrational and bigoted when deciding that female boundaries can be freely transgressed by males?

In case that's not crystal clear enough...

If transgender identified males fear violence from males in a male intimate spaces, many people seem to think that their discomfort and fear is an acceptable reason to give them the privilege of using female spaces.

If females fear violence from males in female intimate spaces, those females get mocked derided, intimidated and bullied into letting males into their spaces anyway.

It seems as if the feelings of males are way more important than the feelings of females.

Especially since I have yet to meet any male who would be offended or even substantially uncomfortable at having a male in their spaces who happened to be wearing female clothing and make-up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am astonished you hold that view.
But thank you for it.
I guess you wish him the Posie Parker treatment.

That doesn't follow at all! I would say that your extrapolation is harmful and extremist.

There are a LOT of people that I think are unsavory, even a very few that I genuinely feel hatred toward (for me, hate is an extremely strong emotion, and one I rarely have). But even for those I think are the absolute worst of the worst who probably have bodies buried under their front porch, I would not on them the treatment that KJK has received.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Funny how the adults always manage to figure these things out, without any hysteria and with decent equity.

Yes, it is funny how for some of those "adults" they "figure out" that equity and fairness for females are unimportant, and that only the affirmative feels of males matter.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Fine. If he want to do that let him.

I don't know if you have ever seen some of the women in those women's prisons - such as the Auckland Region Women's Corrections Facility in Manukau but I promise you, I would not want to be a guy trying to be a woman and then get chucked in with that lot. He'll be damned lucky if he exits with his gonads still attached!

I'm rather more of the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to ENTER with their gonads still attached.

And even then, I'll take a lot of convincing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know if you have ever seen some of the women in those women's prisons - such as the Auckland Region Women's Corrections Facility in Manukau but I promise you, I would not want to be a guy trying to be a woman and then get chucked in with that lot. He'll be damned lucky if he exits with his gonads still attached!

I have heard that too these gals are vicious.

Serious question. "Vicious" compared to other females? Or "vicious" as compared to males?

 

[Elaedith]

The headline: What America has got wrong about gender medicine

It is, in part, about how the US is getting further behind other countries who are listening to whistleblowers (rather than decrying them as transphobes and ostracizing them) and doing systematic reviews, and holding off on puberty blockers, opposite sex hormones and surgeries until there’s compelling evidence that the benefits outweigh the risks.

Here's a link to an archive of the other recent Economist article.

The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak

It covers what has been discussed in these threads over the last year or so, but this has received much less coverage in the US.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Here's a link to an archive of the other recent Economist article.

The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak

It covers what has been discussed in these threads over the last year or so, but this has received much less coverage in the US.

That would be in part because news in the US isn't actually, you know, news. It's sort of reporting of events, but a whole lot of it is heavily wrapped in opinion and judgement, highly politicized, and often intentionally sensationalized to evoke a strong negative reaction.

Fear and Anger sell.

 

[Samson]

Serious question. "Vicious" compared to other females? Or "vicious" as compared to males?

Frequency in fact. A recently released told me there are far more fights in women's prisons, though I am not sure how she knew. She also said she was able to stay clear of them, maybe as someone older.

 

[Robin]

What group of people do you think missed it?

I was making the same point as Chappelle and someone here tried to counter it with a quote from Chappelle. That person missed it.

Chappelle got it at least. All the people who think that understanding the experience of transgender people is merely a matter of recognising that gender dysphoria is real also missed it

And allies of the trans community also missed that Chappelle wasn't going the full gender critical.

 

[smartcooky]

Or Kate Weatherly, the NZ trans mountain biker who was always in the bottom half of the field when competing with other men. Now, he wipes the floor with all his actual female competitors through having grown up a male, therefore going through male puberty, and is anatomically still male, and therefore is visibly physically bigger and stronger than those he is competing against.

I'd love to know how it can be considered fair for all those ambitious girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in their chosen sport, only for some man to come along and take their dreams away? Perhaps London John can explain the equity in this.

Still waiting for London John to explain the equity in this for the girls who have had their hopes dashed by an authorized cheat.