Merged What the quran really says.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Islamophobe is a word created to cast aspersions on anyone who attempts to criticize the Quran. Its aim is to undermine valid and reasonable criticisms of this book filled with hate for unbelievers in the words of Muhammad.

I spent the recent Islamophobia day on twitter where a number of Labour MPs blathered on about dealing with islamophobes.
I tweeted every one of them asking them the simple question. Have you actually read the Quran? I said if not I would keep your opinions to yourself until you have.

Lad, you're perfectly free to listen to the islamophobe, but don't try to bs me that islamophobia ain't real. And there is nothing Spencer has done in his whole adult life that could be characterised as fair or reasonable, he is a hate-filled non-entity who spouts lies simply to gain what little recognition he gets from his far right buddies.

In response to your question about the qu'ran, have you ever listened to anybody who has experienced persecution based on their religious beliefs? I have, and while I feel that religions as institutions are nothing but bad news, the vast majority of individual believers are honest, decent and fair-minded people, a hell of a lot more so than you are.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Lad, you're perfectly free to listen to the islamophobe, but don't try to bs me that islamophobia ain't real. And there is nothing Spencer has done in his whole adult life that could be characterised as fair or reasonable, he is a hate-filled non-entity who spouts lies simply to gain what little recognition he gets from his far right buddies.

Ironically, Spencer has engaged in his own religious cherry picking. I read that he'd gone from Greek Orthodoxy to Catholicism, but returned to Greek Orthodoxy after being criticized by the RCC for his hate speech. In other words, he modified his interpretation of his religious doctrine when he didn't like what it said. I wonder why he thinks that only non Muslims can do that.

 

[catsmate]

So did Churchill.

A friend of mine died a few days ago. I guess I will have to go to the memorial service and put up with all the eulogies where people say what a wonderful guy he was and how much he gave to the community (which is all true) and is being rewarded for it in Heaven. No, he's dead. It's too late now to say how much you appreciated him.

Every time I watch a war movie that ends with the hero being thanked for his service at the funeral I want to puke.

But that's just me. Convincing people to sacrifice all for the good of the country is a time-honored way of repelling hordes and winning wars. It may be repulsive to some, but it works.

Read some history. Every leader was doing that.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

 

[catsmate]

Your Muslim friends may not have read the following verse in the Quran.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that , in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Quran 3.28

Or they may not lap it up as unthinkingly as you you seem to expect.I

Some people can think for themselves....

 

[catsmate]

You completely misrepresent Scorpion.
Why?

 

[Scorpion]

Or they may not lap it up as unthinkingly as you you seem to expect.I

Some people can think for themselves....

Do what? If they thought for themselves they would not be Muslims.
If they are Muslims they believe every word of the Quran is from God.

There is no middle ground.

 

[Scorpion]

Ironically, Spencer has engaged in his own religious cherry picking. I read that he'd gone from Greek Orthodoxy to Catholicism, but returned to Greek Orthodoxy after being criticized by the RCC for his hate speech. In other words, he modified his interpretation of his religious doctrine when he didn't like what it said. I wonder why he thinks that only non Muslims can do that.

I just tweeted him and sent a link to this page. I invited him to join the discussion. I hope he does.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Do what? If they thought for themselves they would not be Muslims.

If you thought for yourself, you wouldn't believe in ESP.

If they are Muslims they believe every word of the Quran is from God.

And most all religious Jews believe that every word of the Tanakh is from God.* Do you think they all use it to justify slavery or murdering members of their families for engaging in premarital sex, or for suggesting they convert to another religion? Seriously, Scorpion, I want you to answer this question.

There is no middle ground.

Yes, there is. It's where the vast majority of all religious people live. You're judging Muslims by different criteria than you use for others. That's the essence of bigotry.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I just tweeted him and sent a link to this page. I invited him to join the discussion. I hope he does.

Do you think we can't call him on his ********, too? You're clearly very impressed with him, but I can assure you the rest of us are not.

 

[Scorpion]

Lad, you're perfectly free to listen to the islamophobe, but don't try to bs me that islamophobia ain't real. And there is nothing Spencer has done in his whole adult life that could be characterised as fair or reasonable, he is a hate-filled non-entity who spouts lies simply to gain what little recognition he gets from his far right buddies.

In response to your question about the qu'ran, have you ever listened to anybody who has experienced persecution based on their religious beliefs? I have, and while I feel that religions as institutions are nothing but bad news, the vast majority of individual believers are honest, decent and fair-minded people, a hell of a lot more so than you are.

I wonder if you people ever watch the news. Do you remember the recent attempt by ISIS to take over the middle east and turn it into an Islamic caliphate. I wonder whose side you are on.

 

[Scorpion]

If you thought for yourself, you wouldn't
believe in ESP.

I find that remark slightly irritating, but I will not engage with you on it until I start a thread called. 'The reality of ESP' which is the title of the book by Russell Targ. You might like to read it before commenting on ESP.

And most all religious Jews believe that every word of the Tanakh is from God.* Do you think they all use it to justify slavery or murdering members of their families for engaging in premarital sex, or for suggesting they convert to another religion? Seriously, Scorpion, I want you to answer this question.

I don't care what the Jews think, see my answer to your next question below.

Yes, there is. It's where the vast majority of all religious people live. You're judging Muslims by different criteria than you use for others. That's the essence of bigotry.

I have said I think the old testament is Jewish myths and since Jews have only one country and they are forced to defend it by rocket attacks. and they are outnumbered by more than fifty Muslim countries that want to destroy them. They are hardly the aggressors. As for Christianity, Jesus teachings are a thousand times more humane than the rantings of the bandit Muhammad.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I wonder if you people ever watch the news. Do you remember the recent attempt by ISIS to take over the middle east and turn it into an Islamic caliphate. I wonder whose side you are on.

So, hating a neo-nazi islamaphobe means we support ISIS? Really?

 

[Thor 2]

I wonder if you people ever watch the news. Do you remember the recent attempt by ISIS to take over the middle east and turn it into an Islamic caliphate. I wonder whose side you are on.

I wonder about the same thing.

I started a thread where I asked the question about the rate of attrition of followers of Islam and was called an Islamophobe also.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I find that remark slightly irritating...

Then your proposed thread probably isn't going to make you any less irritated. No one on this forum is required to humor you or anyone else regarding any claims made without rational support.

You might like to read it before commenting on ESP.

Let me know when he provides some controlled scientific evidence proving anyone can use ESP to achieve correct responses with any statistically significant result greater than random chance.

I don't care what the Jews think, see my answer to your next question below.

I have said I think the old testament is Jewish myths and since Jews have only one country and they are forced to defend it by rocket attacks. and they are outnumbered by more than fifty Muslim countries that want to destroy them. They are hardly the aggressors.

Actually, they have engaged in quite a lot of aggression of their own. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the objectively horrific teachings rattling around at the bottom of the Jewish religious texts. Your double standard is clear: if the offensive bits are from Islam, then they are a central pillar of all Muslims' faith, if they're from any other religion, they're obviously just an anachronism and can be safely dismissed.

As for Christianity, Jesus teachings are a thousand times more humane than the rantings of the bandit Muhammad.

Seriously? Ever read Revelation? The central theme of Christian teaching is that the message of Jesus was "love me above everything or I'll destroy you". And Christians claim the Tanakh as theirs as well, so they also get the awfulness of the Old Testament as well. But, like Muslims, Jews and Christians tend to ignore the awful stuff they find appalling, or do back-flips to rationalize it away.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I wonder about the same thing.

I started a thread where I asked the question about the rate of attrition of followers of Islam and was called an Islamophobe also.

Because you were spouting nonsense. Islam is not massively on the rise in Europe, and there is no evidence that the small rise there has been has anything to do with hardliners.

You also kept talking about how scared it was making you, which was hilarious.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

As for Christianity, Jesus teachings are a thousand times more humane than the rantings of the bandit Muhammad.

We went down this road before Scorpion, do you remember?

Do you not remember me quoting large sections of Jesus' awful immoral teachings to you?

Do you not remember just dropping the point and pretending you never made it? I do.

Yes, the Qu'ran has some absolutely hideous things in it. It teaches blatantly immoral things. So does the Bible. Therefore you must either condemn both books for containing hateful nonsense, or allow the hateful nonsense in both books to slide. You cannot ignore the vile things in the Bible (which I assure you will almost certainly outnumber the vile things in the Quran) and say Christianity isn't evil but then turn around and say Islam is because of the vile things in the Quran.

 

[Foster Zygote]

So, hating a neo-nazi islamaphobe means we support ISIS? Really?

Historically it's had far more to do with security and prosperity than any specific religion. Back before the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was a much different place. It took the destabilization and chaos brought about by that conflict to give the Taliban something to grow in.

Back when Europe was divided among numerous warlords fighting each other like rats in a shoe and using the bulk of the populace as, essentially, livestock, the Christian church was quite the organ of terror and oppression. Then a split in the church led to centuries of bloody, genocidal war as Christians slaughtered one another over whose interpretation of Jesus' message of love and peace was correct. At the same time, the Muslim world was generally much more organized and secure, and more prosperous and tolerant of religious differences than the RCC and its inquisition.

Even today in the U.S., as the economic divide grows greater and the middle class slips away, and more and more people struggle to make ends meet, we see a growth in Christian totalitarianism.

 

[Scorpion]

We went down this road before Scorpion, do you remember?

Yes

Do you not remember me quoting large sections of Jesus' awful immoral teachings to you?

I remember you quoting a couple of verses from Jesus

(which I assure you will almost certainly outnumber the vile things in the Quran) and

That remark make me wonder if you have ever actually read the Quran.

 

[Scorpion]

Do you think we can't call him on his ********, too? You're clearly very impressed with him, but I can assure you the rest of us are not.

Well he won't be coming. Twitter appear to have deleted my tweet to him. They do not say anything to me or ban me, they just delete some of my tweets.
I sent a lot of tweets to the Russians telling them to get rid of Putin before he blows up the world, but twitter deleted them all.

 

[Scorpion]

Because you were spouting nonsense. Islam is not massively on the rise in Europe, and there is no evidence that the small rise there has been has anything to do with hardliners.

You also kept talking about how scared it was making you, which was hilarious.

What news channel do you watch? because Europe is being over run. But I will save that until I start my thread on the matter.