Merged What the quran really says.

[MarkCorrigan]

Islamophobe is a word created to cast aspersions on anyone who attempts to criticize the Quran. Its aim is to undermine valid and reasonable criticisms of this book filled with hate for unbelievers in the words of Muhammad.

I spent the recent Islamophobia day on twitter where a number of Labour MPs blathered on about dealing with islamophobes.
I tweeted every one of them asking them the simple question. Have you actually read the Quran? I said if not I would keep your opinions to yourself until you have.

Nope. Spencer is a Neo-Nazi.

I think the Quran is vile trash, but no moreso than the Bible, and I've met lots of very lovely Muslims. I'm not an islamophobe.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you believe in God/Allah?

I don't 'believe' anything. I know that Allah is the Creator of heavens and earth, the eternal creator and sustainer of the universe, who will eventually resurrect all humans - perfect, singular, immortal, omnipotent, and omniscient - completely infinite in all of his attributes, and most-merciful.

How do I know that? Because it says so right there in Wikipedia.

I also know that Allah is supernatural, ie. outside the laws of Nature. In other words a fantasy. I like fantasy. It puts a little magic in my life and makes existence worthwhile.

Do you believe Muhammad received the Quran as a message from God dictated to him by the angel Gabriel?

According to tradition that is true. What does the Quran say about it?

Of course if Muhammad did receive revelation from God via an angel then that is two supernatural beings involved, with an implication that there are more. This fantasy is starting to sound good!

If not then you and I both have the view the Quran is either the words of a liar and false prophet, or if he actually believe he got the Quran from God then he was a madman.

But what if Muhammad was like me, and just enjoyed a bit of fantasy? That wouldn't make him a liar, just a good story teller! And if his revelation helps others to live better lives, it's all good.

Since Muslim Imams all say it is the words of God, do you think they are lying?

Of course not. What would there be to lie about?

 

[Samson]

Nope. Spencer is a Neo-Nazi.

I think the Quran is vile trash, but no moreso than the Bible, and I've met lots of very lovely Muslims. I'm not an islamophobe.

So Islam can be consumed safely. So can all drugs.
This is no help to the Iranian and Afghan girls.
Blind!

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I agree with all you say. The lies told children from a young age represent a form of child abuse in my view.

Yes, especially the ones telling them about how if they work hard, remember what they are taught, follow the rules and above all keep consuming, they will be well rewarded. Little do they know the only 'reward' is Death. A few do figure it out though, and live like kings.

 

[Samson]

Yes, especially the ones telling them about how if they work hard, remember what they are taught, follow the rules and above all keep consuming, they will be well rewarded. Little do they know the only 'reward' is Death. A few do figure it out though, and live like kings.

Droll.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

This is no help to the Iranian and Afghan girls.

Certainly the rantings of islamophobes are no help.

 

[Oystein]

...my reading of the Quran, which I did 20 years ago, tells me it is a book of evil lies about God...

In formal logic, all statements about the elements of an empty set are true.

Since the set of all gods is empty, it is logically impossible to lie about them.

 

[Foster Zygote]

So Islam can be consumed safely.

No one here is saying that. Islam is no different from the vast majority of other religions in the way it holds back human progress. The same goes for the original Abrahamic if religion. But that doesn't make rabid anti-Semitic ranting correct, and the bigoted crap that Scorpion is now promoting amounts to the same sort of dreck

 

[Scorpion]

Yet more bollocks. There is little "valid and reasonable" in Spencer's spewings.

Have you read Spenser's books then? because I have and I find them accurate, and clear, and valid criticism of the unholy Quran. I believed most of what he says before I read his books.

If this thread goes on casting aspersions on him, I will tweet him with a link to it.

 

[Scorpion]

Why do you assume all Muslims follow the violent bits of the Quran?

A quick look at history shows the bible can be used to whitewash untold murders, wars, slavery etc. In fact, even today the bible is used for such purposes in significant parts of the world, like the Orthodox church pushing for the genocide in Ukraine. Or the evangelical communities pushing for the death penalty for gay people in Africa.

Does that mean all Christians are therefore suspect too? If not, why not?

All Muslims think the Quran is the absolute words of God. I have quoted verses which incite Muslims to behead and maim infidels. If they believe the Quran is Gods command, then every one of them is potentially dangerous.

I am not here to defend Christianity. But if Christians obey the teaching of Jesus they will not wish to harm anyone. His teachings are entirely benign.

 

[Scorpion]

But what if Muhammad was like me, and just enjoyed a bit of fantasy? That wouldn't make him a liar, just a good story teller! And if his revelation helps others to live better lives, it's all good.

Muhammad incited his followers to fight and die for him, he promised them a heavenly reward if the died in battle, and a curse if they retreated in the face of heavy odds.

He was not a charming old story teller, he was a bandit who incited his followers to battle and killed many people.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Muhammad incited his followers to fight and die for him, he promised them a heavenly reward if the died in battle, and a curse if they retreated in the face of heavy odds.

He was not a charming old story teller, he was a bandit who incited his followers to battle and killed many people.

Which makes the Quran pretty much just like the Bible. I have to wonder if Spencer has ever read that book.

And the thing is, we really don't know what Muhammad actually said, because, again, God made the incompetent choice of revealing his message to an illiterate. All we have is what are supposedly the memories of a bunch of guys collecting Muhammad's teachings after he'd died. Like with Jesus, I'm sure that some of his actual words made it into the record, but that there are many attributions which are interpolations. I'm sure the actual Mohammed was as much a scheister as Jesus or Joseph Smith.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

All Muslims think the Quran is the absolute words of God. I have quoted verses which incite Muslims to behead and maim infidels. If they believe the Quran is Gods command, then every one of them is potentially dangerous.

I am not here to defend Christianity. But if Christians obey the teaching of Jesus they will not wish to harm anyone. His teachings are entirely benign.

Ah, so you're measuring with two different yardsticks, you ignore all the violent and dark bits in the Bible and the fact that Christians equally should believe everything as the word of god.

At the same time you ignore the fact that the Quran also contains parts that ask for forgiveness, kindness and charity and the fact that Muslims are not some form of hive-mind but rather individual people, who each interpret their book differently.

I work with a number of colleagues who are Muslim, none of them are out for my blood. I teach a number of Muslim students and the worst I can say of them is that they are annoying teenagers, exactly like the non-Muslims.

I live in a country that has two major political parties dedicated to eradicating the 'Muslim threat' who have a large political influence. Using 'Judeo - Christian' values they are happily suggesting laws that would restrict freedom of religion, freedom of the press, a free judicial system, the freedom of assembly, a free school curriculum, etc etc.
All 'to protect us from the terrorist Muslims' of course. Well and anyone who disagrees with them.
Fortunately so far their influence has been curtailed by the rest of the political landscape, but their influence is clearly felt.

In the meantime there is no Muslim party, the few Muslim politicians that are there are part of different parties and while there are a number of radicalized Muslims who have even killed a few people, statistically these are not even a blip on the radar compared to the total number of violent deaths.

As for 'helping Iranian and Afghan girls' like Samson claims, we had 10+ year to help Afghan girls as the west and totally screwed that up, and by giving the Iranian government a convenient and realistic scapegoat for the economic woes of their country we are supporting that regime with our sanctions. Heck, the government of Iran can even point to Iraq and Afghanistan and point out 'look what western freedom' will do. After all, the liberation of Iraq has severely set back women's rights in that country.

I the meantime in both the US and the EU it's not Muslims that are happily crushing women's rights, but the Evangelical and Catholic populist movements.

So yeah, while I agree that the Quran contains horrible things, and that a few Muslims seem to focus on those, I'll focus on dealing with the actual threats to my liberty here are home, and those do not read the Quran.

 

[Scorpion]

Dear Foster Zygote and Lukraak_Sisser and everyone else concerned.
This morning I decided I will eventually start a new thread in the conspiracy section called.
'The Islamification of Europe and the West'. Because I intend only to discuss what is in the Quran on this thread. I cannot start it yet, because it will take time to research it and I am busy painting a new picture, and reading two books about ESP. I will be starting another thread called 'the reality of ESP' when I have finished reading the books.

 

[Samson]

Ah, so you're measuring with two different yardsticks, you ignore all the violent and dark bits in the Bible and the fact that Christians equally should believe everything as the word of god.

At the same time you ignore the fact that the Quran also contains parts that ask for forgiveness, kindness and charity and the fact that Muslims are not some form of hive-mind but rather individual people, who each interpret their book differently.

I work with a number of colleagues who are Muslim, none of them are out for my blood. I teach a number of Muslim students and the worst I can say of them is that they are annoying teenagers, exactly like the non-Muslims.

I live in a country that has two major political parties dedicated to eradicating the 'Muslim threat' who have a large political influence. Using 'Judeo - Christian' values they are happily suggesting laws that would restrict freedom of religion, freedom of the press, a free judicial system, the freedom of assembly, a free school curriculum, etc etc.
All 'to protect us from the terrorist Muslims' of course. Well and anyone who disagrees with them.
Fortunately so far their influence has been curtailed by the rest of the political landscape, but their influence is clearly felt.

In the meantime there is no Muslim party, the few Muslim politicians that are there are part of different parties and while there are a number of radicalized Muslims who have even killed a few people, statistically these are not even a blip on the radar compared to the total number of violent deaths.

As for 'helping Iranian and Afghan girls' like Samson claims, we had 10+ year to help Afghan girls as the west and totally screwed that up, and by giving the Iranian government a convenient and realistic scapegoat for the economic woes of their country we are supporting that regime with our sanctions. Heck, the government of Iran can even point to Iraq and Afghanistan and point out 'look what western freedom' will do. After all, the liberation of Iraq has severely set back women's rights in that country.

I the meantime in both the US and the EU it's not Muslims that are happily crushing women's rights, but the Evangelical and Catholic populist movements.

So yeah, while I agree that the Quran contains horrible things, and that a few Muslims seem to focus on those, I'll focus on dealing with the actual threats to my liberty here are home, and those do not read the Quran.

I see an occasional lapse by organised religion to throw an incandescent favour, eg Bachs contract to write weekly cantatas. I scan the horizon for anything like it from Islam, an utterly repellant pig of a religion.

I was born "christian" and if anyone wishes to call it an utterly repellant pig of a religion to my face I will laugh along because they are right.
Christian woman instructs beheading of Christian woman, yep it sucks alright.

 

[catsmate]

Have you read Spenser's books then? because I have and I find them accurate, and clear, and valid criticism of the unholy Quran. I believed most of what he says before I read his books.it.

Yes. But then I'm rather better educated and more discriminating so I quickly saw his nonsense was just that.

QUOTE=Scorpion;14047041]
If this thread goes on casting aspersions on him, I will tweet him with a link to it.[/QUOTE]

Is that supposed to be done sort of threat? Because it's a truly pathetic one.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Is that supposed to be done sort of threat? Because it's a truly pathetic one.

I hope he also sends him a link to his previous threads, and his planned thread on "the reality of ESP".

 

[Scorpion]

Yes. But then I'm rather better educated and more discriminating so I quickly saw his nonsense was just that.

QUOTE=Scorpion;14047041]
If this thread goes on casting aspersions on him, I will tweet him with a link to it.

Is that supposed to be done sort of threat? Because it's a truly pathetic one.

Its not a threat, its a promise. I hope that Spencer will join in the discussion.

I have tweeted Him before and he answered me.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Muhammad incited his followers to fight and die for him,

So did Churchill.

he promised them a heavenly reward if the died in battle, and a curse if they retreated in the face of heavy odds.

A friend of mine died a few days ago. I guess I will have to go to the memorial service and put up with all the eulogies where people say what a wonderful guy he was and how much he gave to the community (which is all true) and is being rewarded for it in Heaven. No, he's dead. It's too late now to say how much you appreciated him.

Every time I watch a war movie that ends with the hero being thanked for his service at the funeral I want to puke.

But that's just me. Convincing people to sacrifice all for the good of the country is a time-honored way of repelling hordes and winning wars. It may be repulsive to some, but it works.

He was not a charming old story teller, he was a bandit who incited his followers to battle and killed many people.

Read some history. Every leader was doing that.

 

[Scorpion]

So did Churchill.

A friend of mine died a few days ago. I guess I will have to go to the memorial service and put up with all the eulogies where people say what a wonderful guy he was and how much he gave to the community (which is all true) and is being rewarded for it in Heaven. No, he's dead. It's too late now to say how much you appreciated him.

Every time I watch a war movie that ends with the hero being thanked for his service at the funeral I want to puke.

But that's just me. Convincing people to sacrifice all for the good of the country is a time-honored way of repelling hordes and winning wars. It may be repulsive to some, but it works.

Read some history. Every leader was doing that.

Do try and realize nearly two billion people in the world think Muhammad received a direct message from God. They read his words that God curses unbelievers in Muhammad and that God will burn the unbelievers in hellfire for all eternity. Islam is not a benign religion to comfort dusty Arabs. The Quran is a war manual. War leaders did not start a religion based on evil lies about God. But Muhammad did. We are facing the consequences of his lies now, and will do into the future until this false religion is undermined and destroyed out of the minds and hearts of men.

Churchill and Hitler have had their war and soon there will be no one left alive who remembers it. It will just be a lesson in history books. But the tribal hate of unbelievers will still go on in the minds and hearts of many Muslims, until they are made to realize they follow a false prophet.

They think they serve God when they crash planes into buildings and blow up busses and trains. Do you think they do ? If not you are on my side.