Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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I've no doubt that there is more (or less, depending on your point of view) to that story that Keen or 4W are saying, but Keen is a polemicist - I don't think we can say she's any more unbelievable than someone who says that words are literal violence, for example.
 
The kids can change gender here now

https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview--... for,intersex, nonbinary and takatāpui people.

No mention that parents are involved.
I checked
Parent or guardian needed to age 15
16 and 17 year olds need anyone over 18 that has known them 12 months.
Over 18 it is automatic for all comers, 4 choices
Male, female, non binary, other gender.

So sports, jails, women's refuges can go figure.
 
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Robin said:
The question is, what do we want transgender people to do?

A. Behave according to societal expectations of their birth sex
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I've only ever seen old school conservatives seriously arguing for this approach.

Robin said:
B. Behave as they wish but acknowledge their biological sex for the purposes of sports, women only areas and dating people who have a preference for a particular biological sex...
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Every trans activist group has objected to the first two aspects of option (B), especially the idea of "women only areas" which do not acknowledge the core doctrine of "trans women are women" for the purposes of sorting people into those areas. The third one remains up for debate AFAICT.
 
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FatherLukeduke said:
Whereas you might like what English Swimming have done

Swim England announces transgender policy with ‘open’ and ‘female’ categories




Seems pretty sensible to me - hopefully other organisations will take this lead.
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This is precisely what every non-contact sport will be doing over the next few years, once they've gone through the proper process of qual/quant research into performance advantages in their particular sport(s) and once they've held a proper consultation.

And..... it's exactly what I've been arguing should - and will - happen for prob well over a year now:

Trans women will, by and large, be permitted to compete in women's sport* at all non-elite and non-sub-elite levels. And rightly so. But trans women will not be permitted to compete in women's sport at elite and sub-elite levels. And rightly so.

And, slowly but surely, all the reactionaries who've been throwing their hands up in horror (a big hello to certain participants in this very thread) at the merest thought of trans women in women's sports will come to realise that the solution being implemented is fair and proportionate. Or they'll die out owing to most of them being old, and natural attrition being a thing. Either way, in 10-20-30 years, the world will still be turning, and people will still be enjoying spectating women's elite sport and men's elite sport just as they always have done.


* excluding contact sports or other sports where there might be personal injury issues
 
LondonJohn said:
And..... it's exactly what I've been arguing should - and will - happen for prob well over a year now:
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Up to a point...

When exactly did you slip in "sub-elite" as a category and what do you mean by it?

When the Sports Council recommendations came out you said they were "almost exactly" your own view but added:

(But I hold that for running, high-jump, javelin, rowing, fencing, etc...... transwomen/girls should be allowed to compete in the women's/girls' categories at a non-elite level)
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I assume you meant to include swimming here as well?

You do realise the swimming recommendations cover all licensed competitions, with limited exceptions?
Its new policy contains provision for athletes to self-ID in low-level “unlicensed” events, such as intra-club recreational races. But the timings and scores posted at these events will not be applicable to Swim England rankings or eligible as records.
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Shaneel Lal says Posie Parker was seeking to remove the rights of trans people.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shane...less-he-disagrees/5XX5CMSBQVHEXJJ4MBB6TVBC24/

Note the concensus on this thread is those "rights" were claimed wrongfully and should be voluntarily relinquished, assuming he means the rights to women only spaces, the right to compete against women, and the right to administer irreversible drugs to minors. Etc etc.

David Seymour responds

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/polit...-speech-really-is/LLHK4X7O5BDDBBA7T554K2QBO4/

An outstanding politician, scholar and should be prime Minister.
 
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Wayward son2 said:
That is unless TRAs are not interested in trans identified people being forced to use unisex toilets, because their fight isn't over safe spaces, but consider not being able to use the toilet of their preference as denying their basic identity.
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I'm sure denying their basic identity is part of it, but it's also about having a safe place to go to the bathroom while in public. A trans-woman in a men's room or a trans-man in a woman's room may face aggressive hostility.
 
Samson said:
David Seymour responds

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/polit...-speech-really-is/LLHK4X7O5BDDBBA7T554K2QBO4/

An outstanding politician, scholar and should be prime Minister.
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Datalaugh.gif


David Seymour is a total dick!
 
smartcooky said:
[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/4exuos06bhrao3x/Datalaugh.gif?raw=1[/qimg]

David Seymour is a total dick!
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I am astonished you hold that view.
But thank you for it.
I guess you wish him the Posie Parker treatment.
 
The Atheist said:
Please take that to the NZ thread, because you have to be taking the piss.
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Relevant to this thread because he is well educated and able to understand logical steps that avoids the rabbit holes. He is not confused for example by questions like what is a woman.
 
d4m10n said:
Is NCAA swimming elite or sub-elite, or like, neither?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
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It's on the borderline. It's for FINA and the NCAA to decide.

Funny how the adults always manage to figure these things out, without any hysteria and with decent equity.


Sent from my nether regions using smoke signals.
 
Aber said:
Up to a point...

When exactly did you slip in "sub-elite" as a category and what do you mean by it?
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A very, very long time ago. If you do a simple search of that term, you'll be able to find out, n'est-ce pas?*

ETA: And regarding definitions, "sub-elite" is, in principle, as easy to define as "elite". It means simply "not elite in itself, but can be considered a/the direct pathway to the elite level". So, for example (to take a US-centric example): professional basketball is elite-level; college basketball is sub-elite, because it's clearly a direct feeder into the pro game; but local-league basketball is not sub-elite.


When the Sports Council recommendations came out you said they were "almost exactly" your own view but added:



I assume you meant to include swimming here as well?

You do realise the swimming recommendations cover all licensed competitions, with limited exceptions?
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Yes, yes I do. Licensed swimming competitions fall into "sub-elite competition", because they're direct feeders into elite-level swimming.


* ETA: Over 18 months ago (I did the childishly-simple search on your behalf....). And you have an interesting definition of "slip(ping) (it) in". Maybe you should read my posts more carefully and thoroughly before accusing me of underhand tactics, eh?
 
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Samson said:
Relevant to this thread because he is well educated and able to understand logical steps that avoids the rabbit holes. He is not confused for example by questions like what is a woman.
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Well, I'm not confused by that question, so maybe I should be Prime Minister...

Woman: A member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens who, in the normal course of events, will at some point in their life be capable of biologically conceiving, carrying a foetus and bearing offspring.

Man: A member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens who, in the normal course of events, will at some point during their life be capable biologically producing sperm and biologically fathering offspring.

If a man wants to change his gender to female, they cannot be designated as a woman unless they are able to conceive, carry a foetus and bear offspring.

If a woman wants to change her gender to male, they cannot be designated as a man unless they are able to biologically produce sperm and biologically father offspring​
 
smartcooky said:
Well, I'm not confused by that question, so maybe I should be Prime Minister...

Woman: A member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens who, in the normal course of events, will at some point in their life be capable of biologically conceiving, carrying a foetus and bearing offspring.

Man: A member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens who, in the normal course of events, will at some point during their life be capable biologically producing sperm and biologically fathering offspring.

If a man wants to change his gender to female, they cannot be designated as a woman unless they are able to conceive, carry a foetus and bear offspring.

If a woman wants to change her gender to male, they cannot be designated as a man unless they are able to biologically produce sperm and biologically father offspring​
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The prime Minister now carries the flag for John Doe.
John is going to prison in July.
On June 16 he can change his birth certificate sex to female without needing any 2nd party .
He will serve his sentence in a female facility.
When released he will change his birth certificate sex to male.

This is.law in New Zealand.
 
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LondonJohn said:
Funny how the adults always manage to figure these things out, without any hysteria and with decent equity.
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Nothing sexist about calling females hysterical when they ask for their own spaces, am I right bro?

ETA: Let's ask the people who lost to Lia Thomas about equity.
 
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