Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Ziggurat]

Who smeared her argument? Not me.

Yes you did, by calling it a motte, which indicates that it’s being used dishonestly to defend a different Bailey argument.

I am wondering why you never address what I am saying. Biological sex is a binary. The concept of "sex" as used in everyday life (and as it has always been used) does not mean purely biological sex and is not a binary

No. YOU may think that, but lots of other people, myself included, do not. There is no evidence that Rowling does. Sex is different than gender roles, and many people do not use sex to mean gender roles. You don’t get to tell other people what they mean by their own words.

Can you answer explicitly, Are you saying that when people say "man" and "woman" they are only referring to biological sex and they are not referring to any social grouping whatsoever?

Which people? In what context? Sure, some people sometimes use those words to mean associated gender roles. But that’s not relevant, because we aren’t even talking about those words. The words that attach directly to sex (which is the word Rowling used) are not man and woman, but male and female.

 

[Ziggurat]

You talk as though there were some objective fact of the matter about what words mean but of course there isn't.

And as I said, meaning is not a simple thing, it involves layers and associations..

https://xkcd.com/169/

Everyone but you understands what everyone else means by sex. The problem isn’t all of us, it’s you.

 

[Robin]

I would say that the reason is society foists gender roles and gendered expectations on people after observing their sex. Take those norms and expectations away, the observation of male and female sex remains.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

OK but the question is, when someone says "Boys shouldn't play with dolls houses" have they stripped those layers away?.

 

[Ziggurat]

OK but the question is, when someone says "Boys shouldn't play with dolls houses" have they stripped those layers away?.

Who the hell is saying that? No one in this thread, and not Rowling.

 

[Robin]

.
Which people? In what context? Sure, some people sometimes use those words to mean associated gender roles. But that’s not relevant, because we aren’t even talking about those words. The words that attach directly to sex (which is the word Rowling used) are not man and woman, but male and female.

And I have already covered "male" and "female" in general usage referring to categories which are assumed to entail obligations, giving examples.

 

[Robin]

Who the hell is saying that? No one in this thread, and not Rowling.

I didn't say Rowling said that. I didn't say anyone on this thread said that .

I can't imagine what gave you the idea that I was saying that.

You are just jumping in late in a discussion where it is made clear what that means. I can't catch everyone up.

 

[Robin]

My youngest son also likes dolls houses and we have been asked on more than one occasion by people, on seeing his dolls house, "is he gender non-conforming?" to which we say "No what makes you ask?"

 

[Dani]

OK but the question is, when someone says "Boys shouldn't play with dolls houses" have they stripped those layers away?.

If, by layers, you mean gender roles and gendered expectations that society tends to add on top of observed sex, the answer would be "no".

Yours would be a textbook example of that, precisely.

 

[Aber]

And I have already covered "male" and "female" in general usage referring to categories which are assumed to entail obligations, giving examples.

Many of which are seriously dated.

 

[Robin]

Many of which are seriously dated.

Obviously I am making the point, as I always make, that this has been the case for a long time.

 

[Robin]

https://xkcd.com/169/

Everyone but you understands what everyone else means by sex. The problem isn’t all of us, it’s you.

Posting an irrelevant cartoon and arbitrarily declaring victory to avoid making the slightest attempt to even understand what I am saying.

Not very helpful.

 

[d4m10n]

And I have already covered "male" and "female" in general usage referring to categories which are assumed to entail obligations, giving examples.

We call these assumptions and obligations gender roles and/or gender norms. They are conceptually distinct from biological sex which may be observed in non-human animals. There is nothing to be gained here by muddling these two sets of ideas together, especially since no one here is promoting gendered roles while everyone here believes in biological sex as an observable phenomenon.

My youngest son also likes dolls houses and we have been asked on more than one occasion by people, on seeing his dolls house, "is he gender non-conforming?" to which we say "No what makes you ask?"

How would you define "gender non-conforming" such that it can be applied to young children?

 

[Ziggurat]

Posting an irrelevant cartoon and arbitrarily declaring victory to avoid making the slightest attempt to even understand what I am saying.

Not very helpful.

I understand what you're saying, you're just wrong. You're insisting that everyone uses "sex" to mean something other than we are all telling you we mean by it. That's bad communication skills, and it's your fault, not mine or anyone else's.

 

[Brainster]

My youngest son also likes dolls houses and we have been asked on more than one occasion by people, on seeing his dolls house, "is he gender non-conforming?" to which we say "No what makes you ask?"

Because they want to applaud if he is.

 

[Samson]

My youngest son also likes dolls houses and we have been asked on more than one occasion by people, on seeing his dolls house, "is he gender non-conforming?" to which we say "No what makes you ask?"

I think the question could only be asked by those brainwashed by the catastrophic descent into harm to children as the default journey.

 

[Paul2]

You talk as though there were some objective fact of the matter about what words mean but of course there isn't.

And as I said, meaning is not a simple thing, it involves layers and associations..

The question is, what does a person mean when the day "sex"? Mostly in general rather than medical usage, they mean what you call gender.

Incidentally, the point of a debate is not to win it

You're absolutely correct about usage and layers of meaning and associations, but the problem is that the arguments get all wrapped up in different usages and layers and associations, so to dis-entangle those purely semantic roadblocks that get in the way of getting to the actual issues, it's useful to set some definite meanings and usages and associations in a way that distinctions are made clear, so everyone knows what everyone is talking about. That's the basis for others laying out some of those definitions for which you understandably question, but it still makes sense to make those distinctions in that way, as it aids discussion. No particular person has to accept those definitions, but not doing so is going to make conversation very difficult.

 

[Dismember]

Should be interesting trying to explain to their "daughter" why they're ejaculating sperm all over their bedding in the middle of the night while also trying to maintain the fiction that their "daughter" is NOT biologically male.

Might also be a bit confusing when their "daughter" goes for their first cervical exam and the doctor can't find it.

I’ve often wondered what life will be like in 10 years or so if we have a generation of young adults who don’t know up from down re: natal sex and can’t confidently discern a man (adult human male) from a woman (adult human female) in most day-to-day situations, something most of us take for granted. We still have time; maybe a lot of this will have been resolved by then. But there are some hopelessly confused young people out there at the moment and Stonewall, Mermaids et al seem determined to keep them that way.

I don’t think this has been posted here yet — admin at Wellesley College, a women’s college, is going to have to figure out how they define “women” for admissions purposes: https://archive.ph/xXZyT

“But Ms. Um has not been actively opposing the referendum, partly because it is destined to pass, she said, adding that pushing against it on campus is akin to “social suicide.”

With emotions high and division deep, Dr. Johnson thinks the debate so far has been unhealthy. There is enormous social pressure for students to support the referendum, she said, adding that she has received messages from students, faculty and staff saying that they could not voice their opposition for fear of being ostracized.

“I’ve been personally booed at public gatherings where I’ve referred to Wellesley as a women’s college, which it is,” Dr. Johnson said.
Still, even if students vote overwhelmingly for the referendum, she said she will not rethink her opposition.

 

[The Atheist]

Let's all pretend that a kid was never called a sissy for taking ballet lessons ...

I've always thought that alone was absolute proof that the people who say bollocks like that are both stupid and hiding their feelings.

What could be more sissy than being the only boy in a room full of scantily-clad, beautiful girls with amazing bodies?

 

[TomB]

I didn't say they were questioning my sex. They are making the statement that I am a male who is failing to live up to society's expectations for presentation and behaviour and that this is an undesirable thing.

That is because when they say "male" they don't just mean biological male, they are referring to a social category built on top of biological sex which they unconsciously presume to carry that obligation to behave and present in these ways.

This social category may be what you call gender but in that case when they say "male" they are referring to gender.

Who is they?

Bear in mind that:

1. The seperation of sex and gender into seperate concepts is rather new. Therefore linguistic distinction is also relatively new.
2. Given the above, you can't really make points based on applying old usage to new concepts or vice versa.
3. Regardless of common usage, within context of a discussion it is useful to have seperate terms for seperate concepts. If you think male/femal and man/woman both refer to sex and gender, then give us some terms that refer to sex and some terms that refer to gender. Otherwise conversation is not possible over the issue.
4. But we've already done that, though there is not complete support for the idea that man/woman refers to gender exclusive of sex.

 

[TomB]

What have I been doing for the last few pages? Just that.

When I, as a young child, played with dolls houses, took ballet lessons and read Anne of Green Gables and Black Beauty I was called a sissy

Yet my sister did all those things and no-one called her a sissy.

No one ever suggested that it was wrong for her to behave like that but always suggested it was wrong when I did them

Odd that.

Now can you think of some difference between me and my sister that would account for the fact that exactly the same behaviours are regarded as undesirable in me and not in her?

Hair colour? Eye colour? Height?

Well?

If it's the fact that I'm male and she's female then "male" and "female" must have a meaning which implies an expectation of behaviour and presentation.

Actually, I think they were referring to a mismatch between your biological sex (maleness) and your presentation in terms of gender norms/expectations.

The gender critical crowd, by the way, say they would like to get rid of those norms and expectations such that there would be no expectation that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls.