Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Emily's Cat]

No, of course I never said anything of the sort. You are still not reading.. I also said my wife was living as a man.

So according to your logic I must have been saying that "biological male" meant doing the dishes and child care.

So please acknowledge that I was saying neither of these things.

In the part you responded to I was talking about socially transitioning and asking what it could mean to live like a woman>

Now try to read that last paragraph and try to comprehend.

My point was that most of the things we do day to day are no different, from man to women. That if I wanted to "socially transition" I would do nothing differently.

My point was that "socially transitioning" is not really a coherent concept.

You seem to have missed my post. Here it is so you can read it:

I find myself getting frustrated. So I will attempt to be exceedingly clear, in hopes that this will allow you to process these concepts in a way more accessible to people with autism.

You being called a "sissy" and similar derogatory comments are figurative language. It relies on a figurative meaning of the term man, one which is based on stereotypes and sex-based roles.

And I guarantee that not a single person who ever bullied or harassed you for "not being man enough" every thought you were a literal female.

This is the difference between figurative and literal language. Most of us in this thread are talking about literal sexes, not figurative sexes.

There was a brief point in time where second wave feminists did a lot of work to try to separate the two, and tried to rename the figurative sense as "gender". Boy oh boy did we screw up, because that separation of the figurative social construct from the reality of literal sex get hijacked into something insane.

So please, bear in mind that in this thread, the majority of the posters are using literal language when we talk about sex. We are not using figurative language.

If it helps, consider that the mantra of "Transwomen are Women" involves an attempt to force a figurative usage into a literal space. Which is why this thread is titled "Transwomen are not Women". Because transwomen are MALE. And males are not [literalwomen.

Now that you've read it, read it again.

Have you got it? Are you understanding the distinction between your repeated use of a figurative meaning of "man" as opposed to my literal meaning of "male"? Do you begin to understand why I am very explicitly about using male and female in these conversations?

You have lived none of your life as a female. You have engaged in activities that a regressive set of social stereotypes defines as "womanly" activities.

But exactly 0% of your life has been lived as a female. Because. You. Are. Male.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But since you are ignoring that society's concept of the division between the sexes includes an expectation of an obligation to follow a set of social rules then you are, in effect, protecting the status quo of a SOCIAL category of male/female.

No, I'm not. So just stop. Stop telling me what I really mean and what I'm really saying. You're wrong. Your mind reading skills are sub-par.

 

[Samson]

No, of course I never said anything of the sort. You are still not reading.. I also said my wife was living as a man.

So according to your logic I must have been saying that "biological male" meant doing the dishes and child care.

So please acknowledge that I was saying neither of these things.

In the part you responded to I was talking about socially transitioning and asking what it could mean to live like a woman>

Now try to read that last paragraph and try to comprehend.

My point was that most of the things we do day to day are no different, from man to women. That if I wanted to "socially transition" I would do nothing differently.

My point was that "socially transitioning" is not really a coherent concept.

Fortunately your post can be simplified into saying people live as human beings.

(but on a continuum, within specific cultures, there are different behaviors between women and men).

 

[Robin]

You seem to have missed my post. Here it is so you can read it:


Now that you've read it, read it again.

Have you got it? Are you understanding the distinction between your repeated use of a figurative meaning of "man" as opposed to my literal meaning of "male"? Do you begin to understand why I am very explicitly about using male and female in these conversations?

You have lived none of your life as a female. You have engaged in activities that a regressive set of social stereotypes defines as "womanly" activities.

But exactly 0% of your life has been lived as a female. Because. You. Are. Male.

You are missing the mark because I didn't say they said I was female. I said they said I was a sissy.

Different thing.

You need to rewrite your statement based on that clarification.

 

[TomB]

Who smeared her argument? Not me.


I am wondering why you never address what I am saying.

Can you answer explicitly, Are you saying that when people say "man" and "woman" they are only referring to biological sex and they are not referring to any social grouping whatsoever?

I've noticed a linguistic disconnect between you and the people you are having a discussion with.

Long ago on these threads it was put forth that sex and gender were not the same thing and require different terminology. For most here, the use of male and female for sex is non-controversial. Not for all. I'll come back to that. The terms "man" and "woman" have historically been used as synonyms to "male" and "female" just as the term "gender" has historically been a close synonym to "sex." With gender and sex being considered as separate things, some adopted the terms "man" and "woman" to indicate gender, independent from sex. (Over the objection of some of the women on the forum.)

So sex does not refer to gender.
Sex does not refer to the clothes one wears, mannerisms, or any other behavioral aspects. Sex, in these discussions, refers to biological, physical sex.

Dress and behavioral characteristics refer to gender roles or gender norms.

Gender itself is, apparently, a nebulous concept of how one identifies. No one so far as I've seen has presented a clear, concise, non-circular definition. But if I were to (inappropriately) use a genetic term, I might say that gender is "sex-linked," meaning that most (but not all) males have one gender and most (but not all) females identify as another gender.

The gender norms: things like who does the shopping, care-giving, and what clothes one wears are neither gender nor sex, but changeable cultural phenomena. For the most part, the gender critical crowd thinks these roles are B.S. and should be wiped out. I think you agree.

Transgender individuals would be those whose gender (how they identify) does not match up with their sex. Wearing a dress or changing diapers doe not make a male a trans-woman. But a trans-woman would likely adopt feminine gender roles as an expression of their gender. Both for their own benefit (alleviating dysphoria) and as a signal to others that they are to be treated as "women."

Biologically, I can accept the possibility of a genetically based "feminine" or "masculine" personality (or something in-between). The idea of a gene for wearing dresses and makeup though...no. Those are social constructs built around gender which is linked to sex.

Much of these debates either come down to terminology or whether some societal parameter is (or should be) segregated by sex or by gender.

We have women on here who object to the separation of the term "woman" from the sex "female." I don't think this is due to animus against trans-women, but rather an objection to redefinition.

We had a trans-woman on the forum for a while who also did not seem to want to linguistically separate sex from gender. She insisted that she was both woman and female. The way I understand her position is that she feels she has transitioned her gender to her true sex, despite what her genetic phenotype might be. (I have issues with this because as a biologist I view sex in terms of the reproductive system.)

When you say you were called a "sissy," under this terminology they would be "insulting" you based on gender, not questioning your sex. Even though at the time, those were considered the same thing.

Confused yet? It doesn't help that people on both sides often interchange terms referring to gender and sex.

 

[d4m10n]

Yes she did. She said that the.society's concept of "sex";refers to biological facts about the body and nothing besides.

If that were true then my sex would imply no obligation for behaviour and appearance.

We had this extended discussion about the difference between sex and gender in either the first or second iteration of this thread. The former refers to observable physical characteristics, the latter refers to the norms that societies impose based on sex.

ETA: Ninja'd by TomB

 

[Robin]

There is no objective fact of the matter about what words mean.

Words are defined by usage. Does anyone disagree?

Moreover the meaning of words and phrases is not a simple thing. There are layers of meaning and overtones.

It is my position that the general usage of words like "sex", "male", "female", "man" and "woman" does not refer purely to biological sex, but rather to a social category built on top of biological sex which includes expectations and obligations to present and act in a certain way.

This presentation and behaviour that is expected is more or less arbitrary, differing from place to place and time to time.

I take it that the position of those who disagree with me is that, in general usage words like "sex", "male", "female", "man" and "woman" refer to biological sex and nothing besides.

If you think I am misrepresenting your position, please say so.

 

[TragicMonkey]

As a female of the human species, I am incredibly incensed by being referred to as "a person who menstruates" or as a "cervix haver". It robs me of my core humanity, it relegates me to nothing more than a set of bodily functions. It is incredibly offensive.

This you?

The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13393238#post13393238

Sure, it's a lot easier to paint your opponent as a bigot if they're bothered by a penis-haver needing to pee in their bathroom... but it really misses the majority of the issue.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13383629#post13383629

 

[d4m10n]

It is my position that the general usage of words like "sex", "male", "female", "man" and "woman" does not refer purely to biological sex, but rather to a social category built on top of biological sex which includes expectations and obligations to present and act in a certain way.

Can you come up with a relevant example of any of the first three words used in a way which conveys gendered expectations?



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[Robin]

When you say you were called a "sissy," under this terminology they would be "insulting" you based on gender, not questioning your sex. Even though at the time, those were considered the same thing..

I didn't say they were questioning my sex. They are making the statement that I am a male who is failing to live up to society's expectations for presentation and behaviour and that this is an undesirable thing.

That is because when they say "male" they don't just mean biological male, they are referring to a social category built on top of biological sex which they unconsciously presume to carry that obligation to behave and present in these ways.

This social category may be what you call gender but in that case when they say "male" they are referring to gender.

 

[Robin]

Can you come up with a relevant example of any of the first three words used in a way which conveys gendered expectations?

What have I been doing for the last few pages? Just that.

When I, as a young child, played with dolls houses, took ballet lessons and read Anne of Green Gables and Black Beauty I was called a sissy

Yet my sister did all those things and no-one called her a sissy.

No one ever suggested that it was wrong for her to behave like that but always suggested it was wrong when I did them

Odd that.

Now can you think of some difference between me and my sister that would account for the fact that exactly the same behaviours are regarded as undesirable in me and not in her?

Hair colour? Eye colour? Height?

Well?

If it's the fact that I'm male and she's female then "male" and "female" must have a meaning which implies an expectation of behaviour and presentation.

 

[Robin]

And don't get me wrong. I'm happy and proud to have been a cissy, at least in retrospect.

It's just that I would prefer to express exactly the same concept with something like "non-binary".

 

[Robin]

OfAs a female of the human species, I am incredibly incensed by being referred to as "a person who menstruates" or as a "cervix haver". It robs me of my core humanity, it relegates me to nothing more than a set of bodily functions. It is incredibly offensive.,

And yet you define "woman" entirely as nothing more thann a set of bodily functions.

Why isn't that offensive?

 

[d4m10n]

What have I been doing for the last few pages? Just that.

I meant example sentences like they do in dictionaries of general usage. If I wanted to show "man" being used to convey gendered expectations I'd quote Rudyard Kipling.

And—which is more—you'll be a Man, my son!

There are also common expressions such as "Man up!" which I can cite without quotation since I'm sure you've all heard it.

What I've never heard (to my fallible recollection) is "male" being used in this way.

 

[Robin]

I meant example sentences like they do in dictionaries of general usage.

First, do you agree that the reason these behaviours were regarded a undesirable in me and desirable in my sister was this I am male and she is female?

 

[Robin]

I meant example sentences like they do in dictionaries of general usage. If I wanted to show "man" being used to convey gendered expectations

"People who tend to fight wars are very patriotic, very male people. Now I am sorry to break it to you but this has been the truth about military warfare for literally all of human history."
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"Despite what Lena Dunham tells you, women are not into beta males & men are not into chicks w/ armpit hair.
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In Guyana, it is a crime under section 153 of the Summary Jurisdiction (Offences) Act when “a man, in any public way or public place, for any improper purpose, appears in female attire, or being a woman, in any public way or public place, for any improper purpose, appears in male attire”.
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A 1935 law banning men from wearing female apparel inpublic between sunset and sunrise was repealed in a sweep-outof outdated laws in state parliament this week.
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How about this from the Courier Mail "ALL this political clap trap about not letting boys be boys is enough to send male role model John Wayne hurtling from his trusty steed.
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n Sydney during the 1850s, both locals and visiting sailors tried to free a fellow sailor from the watch-house in the Rocks – he had been arrested for wandering around the area in female attire."
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A question on Quora: Previous generations had plenty of real men role models. Nowadays, what do you have? I'd say quite very few and the list is getting thinner. What male role models can a boy learn from nowadays?"
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"The rugged, strong, independent male role model is now this weak, effeminate subordinate..."

@WendyBellPgh
, a mother of five boys, fires back at the left's war on masculinity.
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Ben Shapiro "wore a dress and therefore the media is forcibly trying to feminize the western male."

 

[d4m10n]

First, do you agree that the reason these behaviours were regarded a undesirable in me and desirable in my sister was this I am male and she is female?

I would say that the reason is society foists gender roles and gendered expectations on people after observing their sex. Take those norms and expectations away, the observation of male and female sex remains.

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[lionking]

There is no objective fact of the matter about what words mean.

Words are defined by usage. Does anyone disagree?

Moreover the meaning of words and phrases is not a simple thing. There are layers of meaning and overtones.

It is my position that the general usage of words like "sex", "male", "female", "man" and "woman" does not refer purely to biological sex, but rather to a social category built on top of biological sex which includes expectations and obligations to present and act in a certain way.
This presentation and behaviour that is expected is more or less arbitrary, differing from place to place and time to time.

I take it that the position of those who disagree with me is that, in general usage words like "sex", "male", "female", "man" and "woman" refer to biological sex and nothing besides.

If you think I am misrepresenting your position, please say so.

The highlighted is what almost everyone in this thread refers to as gender, not sex. Biological sex is binary, gender is not. Why are you doing this? Do you think it helps you win the debate? It doesn’t.

 

[d4m10n]

I'll conced that some of those examples are really good, particularly the ones from Tasmania & Guyana, where male was used to mean masculine and female was used to mean feminine. That said, here in this thread we've been using those terms exclusively to mean biological sex observed at birth until just a few minutes ago.

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[Robin]

The highlighted is what almost everyone in this thread refers to as gender, not sex. Biological sex is binary, gender is not. Why are you doing this? Do you think it helps you win the debate? It doesn’t.

You talk as though there were some objective fact of the matter about what words mean but of course there isn't.

And as I said, meaning is not a simple thing, it involves layers and associations..

The question is, what does a person mean when the day "sex"? Mostly in general rather than medical usage, they mean what you call gender.

Incidentally, the point of a debate is not to win it