Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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"importance" is not an inherent property that something can have

The concept of importance requires that there is something it is important for and someone it is important to.

There are a number of ways biological sex might be important to people.

But as a grounds for identity, it isn't at all important to me. Nor is "gender".
 
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Robin said:
"importance" is not an inherent property that something can have

The concept of importance requires that there is something it is important for and someone it is important to.

There are a number of ways biological sex might be important to people.

But as a grounds for identity, it isn't at all important to me. Nor is "gender".
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Good for you. But your views do not make biological sex less real and less binary.

Do you think biological sex is just a concept?
 
Biological sex is real.

No-one said it wasn't as far as I know.

This much straw must be a fire hazard.
 
Let's all pretend that a kid was never called a sissy for taking ballet lessons and playing with dolls houses.

Let's all pretend that society only ever made the distinction of biological sex and nothing else.
 
Robin said:
Biological sex is real.

No-one said it wasn't as far as I know.
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The ACLU say that sex must be conceptually subordinated to gender identity in the eyes of law and policy; I've already linked this upthread. It is important to understand that the "sex is real" meme is intended to refute the idea that "someone's sex...is properly understood to be the same as their gender identity," which is the bedrock claim being advanced here by the social justice activists who believe themselves on the right side of history.
 
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d4m10n said:
The ACLU say that sex must be conceptually subordinated to gender identity in the eyes of law and policy; I've already linked this upthread. It is important to understand that the "sex is real" meme is intended to refute the idea that "someone's sex...is properly understood to be the same as their gender identity," which is the bedrock claim being advanced here by the social justice activists who believe themselves on the right side of history.
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So it is still the case that nobody said biological sex isn't real. That is still a straw man.

Again, are you really going to pretend that the general usage of "sex" is restricted to biological sex?

A boy plays with doll houses, goes to.ballet classes and liked to wear his sisters clothes is regarded as gender non-conforming, right? And that's when people are being polite.

And they mean he is not conforming to expectations of how a biological male ought to behave.

So, society's view of sex is not simply oa biological fact about sex organs or chromosomes.

Society's view of sex is something that carries an obligation to dress and act in a certain way.

The "sex is real" move wants us to shut our eyes and put our fingers in our ears to this way society defined "sex" and pretend that society has only ever regarded sex as biological sex.

So JKR's usage is not the general usage of "sex" in society and never.has been.

Biological sex carries no obligation to dress and act in a certain way.

"Sex" in general usage is something which carries an obligation to dress and act in a certain way.

This obligation is, of course, not real but it may as well be for the harsh punitive measures with which it is usually enforced.

So "Sex is real" is, at best, an equivocation.
 
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Robin said:
So JKR's usage is not the general usage of "sex" in society and never has been.
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No

How JKR started:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
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Robin said:
So it is still the case that nobody said biological sex isn't real. That is still a straw man.
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Not really. The position is never framed in those words (because that would give the game away), but there's a transwoman who was participating in this thread earlier who claimed to be female. Lots of people are using "sex" to mean something that is socially constructed, and in that sense it would indeed be not real. Either you are ignorant of these positions, or you're ignoring them to try to make a point, but they are crucial to understanding what Rowling said and why.

Again, are you really going to pretend that the general usage of "sex" is restricted to biological sex?
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Either it refers to biological sex, or it becomes meaningless and hence not real. The people who don't want it to refer to biological sex aren't the traditionalists.

A boy plays with doll houses, goes to.ballet classes and liked to wear his sisters clothes is regarded as gender non-conforming, right? And that's when people are being polite.

And they mean he is not conforming to expectations of how a biological male ought to behave.
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Often people (including me) mean that the person isn't conforming to how that sex typically behaves. "Ought to" doesn't have to come into it.

So, society's view of sex is not simply oa biological fact about sex organs or chromosomes.
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Even people who think boys ought to adhere to stereotypes don't think that a boy who doesn't is somehow not male.
 
Upchurch said:
The episode is actually a little better than 70 minutes, including commercials. 20 minutes of "Golly, the pro-trans community is crazy/mean", about 15 minutes of substantive, if emotional, criticism of Rowling.
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I don't believe that episode's narrative was structured to imply the (irrational) logical leap from a handful of crazies making violent threats to the trans rights community as a whole. But yes, there are a few crazies out there, threatening and occasionally even attacking women for the sake of trans rights.

Episode seven is out now. Here is a salient quote from the head witch:
The thing is, women are the only group—to my knowledge—that are being asked to embrace members of their oppressor class, unquestioningly, with no caveat.
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I found this claim of particular interest, since it should be fairly easy to disprove if untrue.
 
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Robin said:
So it is still the case that nobody said biological sex isn't real. That is still a straw man.
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Those who argue that biological sex is subordinate to gender identity are dereifying the category of biological sex in favor of something which cannot be observed from the outside but only perceived subjectively. They don't say "sex isn't real" but that is the logical implication of making it subordinate to gender.

Robin said:
Again, are you really going to pretend that the general usage of "sex" is restricted to biological sex?
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Nothing pretend about it. That was what the term meant when they drafted and passed Title IXWP.
 
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d4m10n said:
Nothing pretend about it.
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Sure. I've never been called a sissy or effeminate or "not a man" or gender non-conforming because I am a biological male who acts in a certain way.. I just imagined those things.

The term "boy", "girl", "man", "woman" ,"male" "female" never carried the implication of an obligation to dress and act in a certain way.

Sure. Let's pretend that's not a thing.
 
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Robin said:
Let's pretend that's not a thing.
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It's not particularly relevant here, since it's not the sense in which "sex" is being invoked by the "sex is real" crowd. Rowling never said anything about how you have to "man up" or "be a man" because of your sex at birth.
 
d4m10n said:
It's not particularly relevant here,
since it's not the sense in which "sex" is being invoked by the "sex is real" crowd./QUOTE]

That's kind of the point. Rowling is not using the term as it is applied to people in everyday life. She is not talking about the concept "male" as it has been applied, for example, to me all my life.
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