Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Robin said:
Not good. Where were the police?

Why do people want to abandon the moral high ground that was handed to them on a plate?

NB Just one person throwing soup.
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I have thought about why she had few supporters present, as obviously her 2 key points are reasonable and would win hands down in a referendum phrased for example.

Should intact men undress in front of young girls in female changing rooms?
Should intact men be in women's refuges, and women complaining be expelled?
Should intact men be in women's cycle races?
Should irreversible medication be given to minors without parental knowledge?

And so on.

I believe people are concerned at being on the television news and being thus branded neo nazis.
That is why I did not go, for example, out of curiosity.
 
katy_did said:
Hmmm. Well in this far-right write-up of the Melbourne protest, they don't seem that keen on Keen-Minshull at all - indeed, it sounds like the reason they turned up is to prevent the likes of her from dominating:
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Only the first part is a quote from the Nazis at the protest.

The rest, including the parts you quote, are from someone else.

But it highlights the problem of seeking to make common cause with the far right. They're coming for you next.
 
Samson said:
I have thought about why she had few supporters present, as obviously her 2 key points are reasonable and would win hands down in a referendum phrased for example.

Should intact men undress in front of young girls in female changing rooms?
Should intact men be in women's refuges, and women complaining be expelled?
Should intact men be in women's cycle races?
Should irreversible medication be given to minors without parental knowledge?

And so on.

I believe people are concerned at being on the television news and being thus branded neo nazis.
That is why I did not go, for example, out of curiosity.
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Maybe they didn't go because she tries to make common cause with the far right?

Maybe because people think they can make up their minds about these things without having to go and listen to everyone that goes around shouting it?

Maybe because they feel they already have a better understanding of the issues than she will ever have?

Maybe because they feel a dialogue is better than a confrontation?

Maybe because, although they don't want trans women in women's spaces, or competing unfairly in sport and don't want kids being unnecessarily medicalised, they don't go along with the sneering dismissal of the very real thing that trans people are experiencing and have empathy for people in that position.

There are many reasons why someone who agreed with those propositions would not want to go and get harangued by her.
 
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I have a number of convictions that I hold to strongly.

Not once have I ever felt it necessary to go out and have them shouted at me by someone in the street.

I imagine it is the same with most people.
 
Robin said:
Maybe they didn't go because she tries to make common cause with the far right?

Maybe because people think they can make up their minds about these things without having to go and listen to everyone that goes around shouting it?

Maybe because they feel they already have a better understanding of the issues than she will ever have?

Maybe because they feel a dialogue is better than a confrontation?

Maybe because, although they don't want trans men in women's spaces, or competing unfairly in sport and don't want kids being unnecessarily medicalised, they don't go along with the sneering dismissal of the very real thing that trans people are experiencing and have empathy for people in that position.

There are many reasons why someone who agreed with those propositions would not want to go and get harangued by her.
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Of course you know that is not my point.
New Zealand is way down the rabbit hole of turning over female spaces and sports to men.
 
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Samson said:
Of course you know that is not my point.
New Zealand is way down the rabbit hole of turning over female spaces and sports to men.
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You were talking about why there weren't more people there in support of Keen-Minshull.

I gave you lots of valid reasons why people might stay away.
 
Robin said:
You were talking about why there weren't more people there in support of Keen-Minshull.

I gave you lots of valid reasons why people might stay away.
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I gave you my reason, but admittedly disingenuous, because I haven't been to protest for decades.
It will be interesting to see if the media and politicians can spin this into a winning hand.
 
LondonJohn said:
Yeah.... you miss my point entirely. Was that accidental or deliberate on your part?
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Well, what is your point then?

Is it that citing a small town news source indicates having to dig for news?
If so, that's incorrect. (Particularly when it's an update to a story that made national...or actually, international...news.)

Is it that it requires an intensive search to find that a fairly well known and controversial athlete won a (supposedly) minor insignificant event?
Because that's incorrect as well.
 
Robin said:
Not good. Where were the police?
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Plenty of cops there, no crimes committed.

Drowning out bigots is perfectly legal.

Samson said:
I have thought about why she had few supporters present, as obviously her 2 key points are reasonable and would win hands down in a referendum phrased for example.
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Classic case of a bigoted pommy **** cleaving to a few reasonable points to hide the hatred behind.

Samson said:
I believe people are concerned at being on the television news and being thus branded neo nazis.
That is why I did not go, for example, out of curiosity.
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Or, maybe the largest Polynesian city in the world decided quite rightly not to allow the **** to spew her vile in a place where thousands of fa'afafine live peaceful lives.

Georgina Beyer* would be proud.

Samson said:
Of course you know that is not my point.
New Zealand is way down the rabbit hole of turning over female spaces and sports to men.
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There's a middle line, and the Pommy **** is well over it, which is why you've focused on those two, which are also outside sanity.

I'm confident sanity will prevail in sports with both Olympics and World Athletics banning trans athletes. Local yokels like NZ may allow leeway for the likes of Dick Hubbard's offspring, but they'll be outliers that make no difference.

Rugby is already crapping its pants over head injuries - no way are they going to allow a 130kg bloke in panties loose against the Black Ferns.

*There's a trans chick no women's refuge would have been scared of having on site.
 
The Atheist said:
Plenty of cops there, no crimes committed.

Drowning out bigots is perfectly legal.



Classic case of a bigoted pommy **** cleaving to a few reasonable points to hide the hatred behind.



Or, maybe the largest Polynesian city in the world decided quite rightly not to allow the **** to spew her vile in a place where thousands of fa'afafine live peaceful lives.

Georgina Beyer* would be proud.



There's a middle line, and the Pommy **** is well over it, which is why you've focused on those two, which are also outside sanity.

I'm confident sanity will prevail in sports with both Olympics and World Athletics banning trans athletes. Local yokels like NZ may allow leeway for the likes of Dick Hubbard's offspring, but they'll be outliers that make no difference.

Rugby is already crapping its pants over head injuries - no way are they going to allow a 130kg bloke in panties loose against the Black Ferns.

*There's a trans chick no women's refuge would have been scared of having on site.
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Yes yes etc.
You will love the Wellington event.
I find it rabid and disgusting the treatment of this woman.
She comes from the failed Scottish experiment.

My homework was the complete Hobart youtube by the way.
Georgina Beyer is a complete red herring of course. She is well known in advance of presenting anywhere. The women on this thread, are talking about the unknown unknowns, of which there will be a huge number with our current parliament hell bent on the race to reckless obsession with diversity.
It reminds me of saying justice works well when only a few are jailed for life for the crimes of others.
 
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LondonJohn said:
You're right, that wasn't my point. And kudos to the nutters - who I'd guess would be either unemployed or retired (or, in the case of Linehan, both), since they appear to have large reservoirs of free time in which to pursue their targeted bigotry - for digging up the report of this extremely minor event in an extremely minor newspaper.

But since you ask: I would say that I believe transgender people should be permitted to compete in the category that's congruent with their trans gender. The exceptions to this are either a) in the fields of elite and sub-elite categories* or b) where there is a reasonable risk of physical injury to cis participants in the course of competing in a particular sport**. So this particular cycling event - since it's neither at elite level nor an event where physical safety is an issue - should allow trans women to compete.

If the cis women who finished second and third in that minor event want to erase the trans woman and believe that they actually finished first and second, that's up to them. Likewise, if they want to lodge complaints with the event organiser (or indeed to the world cycling body UCI), they can go ahead and do so. My suspicion is that they won't get very far, for very good reasons.


* Elite and sub-elite categories are usually very easy to define for each sport (as indeed World Athletics has just done).

** A good example is women's rugby (both codes), and again World Rugby has taken the correct and appropriate steps to exclude trans women from all full-contact rugby.
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Are you being serious?
 
When it reaches the point that all three podium places in some women's competition that meets LondonJohn's criteria are biological males it will be ... quite funny actually.
 
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IsThisTheLife said:
When it reaches the point that all three podium places in some women's competition that meets LondonJohn's criteria are biological males it will be ... quite funny actually.
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I find LJ’s disregard for the feelings of women in non-elite sports interesting. Some of these women have been training for years in to compete in these “minor” sports. They are then beaten by transwomen who have gone through male puberty and have unfair physical advantages.

I would like to ask LondonJohn why the feelings of winning transwomen athletes trump those of beaten natal women. Why should these “victories” be celebrated and fourth placed women told they just have to put up with it?

(And please spare me the “Usain Bolt was too good for other athletes, so you have to accept being beaten by better transwomen”. I don’t think any male athlete would object to competing against Bolt as the race would be fair. This cycling event wasn’t).
 
Robin said:
Only the first part is a quote from the Nazis at the protest.

The rest, including the parts you quote, are from someone else.

But it highlights the problem of seeking to make common cause with the far right. They're coming for you next.
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The article is by David Hiscox, a member of the NSN which was the group which turned up to protest. If you mean the earlier quote by Sewell, that says nothing about support for Keene either.

I'd say it highlights the fact the NSN were probably not there to support the lesbian feminist headlining the event, which was LJ's claim.
 
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