Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Samson]

If her research skills are so good, hjow did she get it so completely wrong in the example you have above then? Hadn't she done any research into the accepted practice in dealing with trans children?

I would dispute all accepted practice of dealing with trans children.
I would dispute the authenticity of the term trans children.

 

[Elaedith]

I would dispute all accepted practice of dealing with trans children.
I would dispute the authenticity of the term trans children.

I agree. The majority of children who develop gender dysphoria or cross-sex identity desist from it at puberty if not affirmed, but persist if affirmed or socially transitioned. 'Trans child' implies a known outcome in advance (that the cross-sex identity will persist, which is true in only a minority of cases without affirmation).

 

[Samson]

I agree. The majority of children who develop gender dysphoria or cross-sex identity desist from it at puberty if not affirmed, but persist if affirmed or socially transitioned. 'Trans child' implies a known outcome in advance (that the cross-sex identity will persist, which is true in only a minority of cases without affirmation).

My general idea is that adhd, autism, gender dysphoria, dyslexia, and other alleged conditions are products of societal anomalies.
On the other hand, I consider it uncontroversial to see same sex attraction as statistically normal, and probably Darwinian in evolutionary terms.

 

[Myriad]

Well, I suppose it never happens that the far right co-opt other people's causes as stalking horses for their own recruitment purposes so I guess there is never any need to be careful about that.

Should due caution regarding far-right co-option of ones cause include immediately abandoning that cause should the far right co-opt it?

"I support biological women having venues for athletic competition restricted entirely to competitors who share the same physical athletic disadvantages associated with not having gone through male puberty. But the far right thinks so too, so never mind."

 

[Elaedith]

Deeming literally associated with Nazis. Willingly. They were actually doing Nazi salutes. She had every opportunity of knowing this as it was the main criticism of the protest before it went ahead, that it was being supported by Nazi's and the far right.

I have not seen any evidence she knew this in advance. They crashed the protest unexpectedly and that is clearly shown in the video. As for criticisms of association before it went ahead - activists constantly conflate gender critical views with right wing views in a maliciously dishonest way, as is the way of authoritarian fundamentalists who believe they are justified in destroying heretics, so they have only themselves to blame if nobody believes a word they say. In any case, you can't just not protest for a cause you believe in in case somebody evil turns up, unless you are a narcissist motivated solely by prestige and status rather than truth.

The Liberal Party has always been conservative but it is entirely appropriate that they did not want someone in their party who would associate with Nazis.

I was responding to this

There's no place in progressive governments or parliaments for anyone who is an active denialist of transgender identity.

This has nothing to do with 'associating with Nazis'. LJ is implying that politicians should not be allowed to disagree with gender identity ideology and remain in 'progressive' parties, which is dishonestly framed as 'denying transgender identity' rather than rejecting the whole theory of gender identity. Gender critical views are actually a protected philosophical belief in the UK.

But it is nice to know that a principled decision to disassociate yourself with the Seig Heiling far right is what Kathleen Stock would call a totalitarian mindset.

I wonder if Kathleen Stock would see it that way. Probably not, I think she is better than that.

No, the totalitarian mindset is saying simultaneously that you are correct because everyone agrees with you, while applauding punishment of these who disagree. Like somebody in a dictatorship who says they know the government is really good because everybody agrees with it, while simultaneously applauding those who criticise the government being punished.

If you believe that those who disagree with you should have punitive 'consequences' inflicted on them, you forfeit the right to claim that anyone who agrees with you actually believes what they say.

 

[d4m10n]

"I support biological women having venues for athletic competition restricted entirely to competitors who share the same physical athletic disadvantages associated with not having gone through male puberty. But the far right thinks so too, so never mind."

I suppose the second wave feminists who've been fighting for women's spaces for over half a century will have to pack it in now. Perhaps we can let them have female-only retirement communities as a sort of parting gift.

 

[Elaedith]

Andy Lewis publishes part 2 of his critique of Novella's muddled attempt to produce a theory of sex as a bimodal distribution.

The Muddling of the American Mind – Part II

 

[angrysoba]

My general idea is that adhd, autism, gender dysphoria, dyslexia, and other alleged conditions are products of societal anomalies.On the other hand, I consider it uncontroversial to see same sex attraction as statistically normal, and probably Darwinian in evolutionary terms.

Seriously?!?

Where do you get this from? Is this a hunch of yours? Do you have any expertise in this?

 

[Samson]

Seriously?!?

Where do you get this from? Is this a hunch of yours? Do you have any expertise in this?

I am interested in linguistics, and the immunity to confusion in the animal kingdom because they can't do abstract thought or communication.

 

[angrysoba]

I am interested in linguistics, and the immunity to confusion in the animal kingdom because they can't do abstract thought or communication.

This is a weird explanation. You might be "interested in linguistics" and then make far-reaching conclusions from this "interest" but do you actually have any relevant expertise that makes you assume that autism (and other mental health issues) are a result of "societal anomalies"? It sounds very crank-y.

In addition,

"On the other hand, I consider it uncontroversial to see same sex attraction as statistically normal, and probably Darwinian in evolutionary terms."

It is just weird to be trying to argue for something on the basis that it is "Darwinian in evolutionary terms". Societies are not (or should not be, in my opinion) geared to running according to "evolutionary terms".

Acceptance or otherwise of transgender or gay individuals is completely irrelevant to natural selection. It is bizarre that you think this is even an issue.

 

[Samson]

This is a weird explanation. You might be "interested in linguistics" and then make far-reaching conclusions from this "interest" but do you actually have any relevant expertise that makes you assume that autism (and other mental health issues) are a result of "societal anomalies"? It sounds very crank-y.

In addition,

"On the other hand, I consider it uncontroversial to see same sex attraction as statistically normal, and probably Darwinian in evolutionary terms."

It is just weird to be trying to argue for something on the basis that it is "Darwinian in evolutionary terms". Societies are not (or should not be, in my opinion) geared to running according to "evolutionary terms".

Acceptance or otherwise of transgender or gay individuals is completely irrelevant to natural selection. It is bizarre that you think this is even an issue.

I am looking for an historical explanation.
My brother wished to be a woman, and this caused great difficulty for him. We all know same sex couples these days who lead ordinary lives without any sanction, and that is obviously fantastic.
But I think the availability of treatment for gender dysphoria has screwed the scrum and created a demand that has been deeply harmful for youth and that is the most interesting matter to consider on the thread.
And I know nothing besides what I have read on hundreds of links from this thread.

On autism and so on I am wondering why it exists only for humans. I consider adhd a manufactured condition where people engaged in the wrong activities are medicated pointlessly.

 

[lionking]

Andy Lewis publishes part 2 of his critique of Novella's muddled attempt to produce a theory of sex as a bimodal distribution.

The Muddling of the American Mind – Part II

I love Steve Novella, but he is wrong at every level on this issue. Ideology has captured his otherwise scientific mind.

 

[Lithrael]

I consider adhd a manufactured condition where people engaged in the wrong activities are medicated pointlessly.

There are a whole lot of unmedicated adhd adults out there you could talk to about how manufactured their difficulties are.

What’s your evidence that autism only affects humans?

Ah, quite a derail, but if you’d care to discuss it please do start a thread.

 

[Robin]

I am looking for an historical explanation.
My brother wished to be a woman, and this caused great difficulty for him.

But why should it have? Not your brothers fault of course. But maybe the fault of the rest of us who haven't challenged the attitudes that provided those difficulties.

I imagine I have lived 99.9% as a woman, but then so have most males. Apart from public toilets, change rooms, sports teams and certain aspects of my sex life, there is nothing that I do that women don't also do.

I am wearing some trakky pants, a sloppy joe and sneakers. As quite a lot of women do.

When I wear a dress or a skirt, I am not trying to be or look like a woman. I am just wearing a dress or a skirt. They are often comfortable and some of them suit me. But I am just a male wearing a dress or a skirt.

I cook and wash up every day for my family. Quite a lot of men don't do that but there is no reason to think that is a masculine or feminine trait.

So for me to want to live any more as a woman than I already am it would involve me wanting to use different toilet and changing facilities and entering into categories in sport where I would have more chance of doing well.

But it doesn't really matter to me which facilities it uses and it matters to quite a lot of the people who use those facilities. And entering into less challenging sports categories would make sport less fun.

So for all intents and purposes I am living as a woman. And at the same time living as a man.

So if I were talking with your brother (and I am sad you have lost him, brothers are special) I would have said these things as I have said to quit a lot of the trans women I have met.

The big challenge is to get the rest of society to see it that way.

On autism and so on I am wondering why it exists only for humans.

I understand that atypical social responses occur in animals as well as repetitive behaviour. I don't know about other symptoms

I consider adhd a manufactured condition where people engaged in the wrong activities are medicated pointlessly.

I think you will find yourself wrong here. I have adhd, not diagnosed until adulthood. But I can look at my old report cards as well as old diary entries from school and see the clear symptoms of it showing through. I wrote something along the lines of "Why the hell can't I do my homework. I want to do it". I just couldn't understand why I couldn't even start the simple parts of my homework.

And the thing is that interventions, whether medical or not, do alleviate these symptoms. Some have suggested that I was just lazy an inattentive. Fine, if people want to describe it that way, but I didn't want to be lazy and inattentive and it affected my life, so if some medication helps me not to be lazy and inattentive then why wouldn't I take it?

 

[Robin]

Should due caution regarding far-right co-option of ones cause include immediately abandoning that cause should the far right co-opt it?

Of course not and I never suggested it did. I have the same problem with respect to Islam and homophobia. Extremists say that I should stand side by side with them on this, but I don't want to give right wing extremists any help in recruitment (my son went partially down the path of right wing radicalism before coming to his senses).

If the local masjid was being threatened by right wing extremists then I would be there to help defend it. I love all my Muslim friends and there isn't a hateful bone in their bodies. But I will still point out that all the major schools of Islamic Jurisprudence say that people like me ought to be murdered in a vile sadistic manner an only disagree in what vile sadistic manner we ought to be murdered.

And I will speak out against this, while supporting the rights to freedom of religion for all Muslims.

Not always easy (I get called Islamophobe and Muslim lover. Taking "phobe" in its literal sense I am probably a mixture of both), but it has to be addresses. Those right wingers pretending support and understanding for gays and lesbians have gays and lesbians for their next target.

This sub topic started because someone suggested the Victorian Liberal Party were expelling a member due to her gender critical beliefs. I pointed out that they were moving to expel her for associating willingly with the far right. The Liberal Party in Australia actually recruit candidate with gender critical beliefs.

No child was ever helped by turning a blind eye to the extremists trying to co-opt this cause.

 

[Robin]

I would dispute all accepted practice of dealing with trans children.
I would dispute the authenticity of the term trans children.

Accepted practice when dealing with children who believe they are trans then.

Remember, one of the big problems with Tavistock is that they ignored the accepted practice.

 

[Robin]

I agree. The majority of children who develop gender dysphoria or cross-sex identity desist from it at puberty if not affirmed, but persist if affirmed or socially transitioned. 'Trans child' implies a known outcome in advance (that the cross-sex identity will persist, which is true in only a minority of cases without affirmation).

Are you saying that a multidisciplinary collaborative approach providing the child with all information and ensuring that the diagnosis is correct and whether or not medical intervention is required ,is not the standard recommended practice when children claim to be trans or have gender dysphoria symptoms?

 

[Robin]

I have not seen any evidence she knew this in advance.

I suppose she might have agreed to join the rally without doing any research whatever, not even glancing at Google.

 

[LondonJohn]

This has nothing to do with 'associating with Nazis'. LJ is implying that politicians should not be allowed to disagree with gender identity ideology and remain in 'progressive' parties, which is dishonestly framed as 'denying transgender identity' rather than rejecting the whole theory of gender identity.

No: this is about an awful lot more than "disagree(ing) with gender identity ideology". It is about the explicit and unequivocal denial of transgender identity*.

Either a) you haven't bothered to read up on this person's disgusting bigotry and her denialism and mockery of transgender people & transgender identity prior to attempting a reply to my post.... or b) you do know exactly what she's said and written, and your counter-claim is therefore mendacious, dishonest and deceptive.

Which of those two alternatives (and there are only those two possible alternatives) would you say applies to your claim here?

Incidentally: in what substantive way is "rejecting the whole theory of gender identity" any different from "denying transgender identity"? I'd be interested in hearing your hot take on that....

Gender critical views are actually a protected philosophical belief in the UK

Your point being?? I don't think you really understand how political parties work.

I'll explain: it's also a protected belief to express the view that (for example) out-of-work people should only receive four weeks' worth of state benefits, and after that they need to fend for themselves or get a job. Yet it'd be interesting to see how long a legislator belonging to the Liberal party would be able to express that view repeatedly and vociferously - including appearing at a rally protesting the concept of welfare benefits - before being kicked out of the party (hint: it'd be days, if not hours).

In exactly the same way, the bigoted denialism of transgender identity - regardless of whether or not it's a protected philosophical belief - is wholly & fundamentally incompatible with representation as a Liberal politician. And she fully deserves to be kicked out of the party, all the more so because she's been doubling down on her transphobic commentary and appearing at an anti-transgender-identity rally. On the other hand, she'd find a welcome home in the odious One Nation party in Australia (one of whose prominent members made a suitably odious little speech at Keen-Minshull's travelling debacle Canberra edition....).


* I mean, I suspect you know that already (in which case I'd be answering my own question here): I would find it odd and slapdash that someone on ISF would seek to negate my claim (that this person has expressed clear and obvious transphobic views, and has denied and mocked transgender identity) without making even cursory checks to find out whether or not my claim has substance. And yep, even the most cursory of checks would quickly reveal that I'm correct, and that any attempt to claim that her PoV is nothing more than "disagree(ment) with gender identity ideology" is false and misleading.

 

[LondonJohn]

Talking of the Canberra edition of the "Let Transphobic Bigots Speak" rally, I highly recommend watching the cached livestreamed edition of the debacle. It picks up where Hobart left off, with Keen-Minshull impressively upping her own ante on unhinged ranting.

There's also a particularly delightful part where she aggressively shuts down one of the female speakers who - having started off "on-message" - then dares to suggest that transgender people are a disadvantaged minority deserving of protection. As the saying goes: "Let Women Speak.... unless those women have the temerity to disagree with my zealotry, in which case Shut Women Up"

And it all takes place against the backdrop of a dank, overcast, rainy day in the Australian capital. Though strangely in the light of this (or, more accurately, the distinct lack of daylight), Keen-Minshull doggedly sticks with the nasty-sunglasses strategy: seems like she's perhaps taking a tip or two from a rather well-known dictator and mass murderer from the previous century, who knew all about (and scrupulously adhered to) the maxim that ideologue demagogues gain more traction from the semi-educated and bigoted masses if they adopt a strikingly unique physical appearance and stick rigidly to that appearance....