Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Elaedith]

Quite a few patients have undergone gender-affirming top surgery in the US, UK, & EU. The problem is that they aren't being tracked in terms of “validated measures of quality of life, depression, anxiety, or functioning” before and after these interventions.

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Long-term systematic tracking those things before and after would be a big improvement on the current situation. It still wouldn't establish benefits of the treatment either absolutely or relative to alternatives without adequate control groups.

 

[Samson]

There is a Twitter thread in this link that shows New Zealand women are disgusted by the idea of male protesters drowning out this Posie Parker.

The mood here is that this woman is wholly correct and the hecklers veto is a cowardly device that eliminates legitimate free speech

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-...-of-auckland-stop/43VV5HN4JRHXDDYH42TO73GOPI/

This is very much not what LondonJohn wishes to believe.
New Zealand is in a parlous state with the education system overwhelmed by mythology, decolonisation and an obsession with a spoken only language.
The people want no more myths and legends such as the idea men can parade through women's changing rooms by self declaration, or should be able to thump women on the sports field.

 

[d4m10n]

Long-term systematic tracking those things before and after would be a big improvement on the current situation. It still wouldn't establish benefits of the treatment either absolutely or relative to alternatives without adequate control groups.

It's very difficult to come up with matched controls because people who self select for double mastectomy aren't into the idea of being assigned to the control group, and ofc it's impossible to blind on surgery.

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[Elaedith]

It's very difficult to come up with matched controls because people who self select for double mastectomy aren't into the idea of being assigned to the control group, and ofc it's impossible to blind on surgery.

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Yes, which needs to be taken into account when evaluating outcomes.

More generally, there haven't been adequate control trials for the overall medical affirmation approach, which usually starts long before reaching the surgery stage.

 

[d4m10n]

More generally, there haven't been adequate control trials for the overall medical affirmation approach, which usually starts long before reaching the surgery stage.

This is what blows my mind about the whole thing. When the Tavistock began to shift from talking therapy to a more medicalized approach (around the time of the Early Intervention Study) they had the perfect opportunity to compare the older approach with the newer one.

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[Elaedith]

Hannah Barnes: My Tavistock exposé scared off 22 publishers

Interesting account by Hannah Barnes of the difficulty getting her book published.

"Of the 12 who responded, all via email, not one publisher said anything negative about the proposal. In fact, several praised it, saying that it was an important story that should be told. But, essentially, not by them. Some mentioned that other authors they published would be “sensitive” to the material, others hinted that it would be difficult to get it past junior members of staff.
Another, who wanted to publish the book, had to take the decision all the way to the chief executive, who then declined, saying it was too controversial. Neither I nor Newsnight’s reporting has ever questioned the identity of young people or the right of people to transition. But, it was as if questioning the care provided to a group of young people could not be seen as legitimate in its own right."

 

[lionking]

Hannah Barnes: My Tavistock exposé scared off 22 publishers

Interesting account by Hannah Barnes of the difficulty getting her book published.

"Of the 12 who responded, all via email, not one publisher said anything negative about the proposal. In fact, several praised it, saying that it was an important story that should be told. But, essentially, not by them. Some mentioned that other authors they published would be “sensitive” to the material, others hinted that it would be difficult to get it past junior members of staff.
Another, who wanted to publish the book, had to take the decision all the way to the chief executive, who then declined, saying it was too controversial. Neither I nor Newsnight’s reporting has ever questioned the identity of young people or the right of people to transition. But, it was as if questioning the care provided to a group of young people could not be seen as legitimate in its own right."

And Hannah will have to live with the unfair label "transphobe' for the rest of her life.

 

[Robin]

Hannah Barnes: My Tavistock exposé scared off 22 publishers

Interesting account by Hannah Barnes of the difficulty getting her book published.

"Of the 12 who responded, all via email, not one publisher said anything negative about the proposal. In fact, several praised it, saying that it was an important story that should be told. But, essentially, not by them. Some mentioned that other authors they published would be “sensitive” to the material, others hinted that it would be difficult to get it past junior members of staff.
Another, who wanted to publish the book, had to take the decision all the way to the chief executive, who then declined, saying it was too controversial. Neither I nor Newsnight’s reporting has ever questioned the identity of young people or the right of people to transition. But, it was as if questioning the care provided to a group of young people could not be seen as legitimate in its own right."

It's never easy getting a book published.

A book accusing people of wrongdoing is always going to be especially difficult since it needs very close scrutiny from the legal section.

 

[Robin]

In that case, I assume you will stop pretending that 'progressive governments all agree with it' constitutes evidence of the validity of gender identity ideology, since you have just admitted that politicians are not allowed to disagree with it.

I mean, you wouldn't want to be somebody who applauds dissenters being punished, and simultaneously claims that the scarcity of dissenters proves you are right, would you?

That is what Kathleen Stock aptly defined as a totalitarian mindset.

Deeming literally associated with Nazis. Willingly. They were actually doing Nazi salutes. She had every opportunity of knowing this as it was the main criticism of the protest before it went ahead, that it was being supported by Nazi's and the far right.

The Liberal Party has always been conservative but it is entirely appropriate that they did not want someone in their party who would associate with Nazis.

But it is nice to know that a principled decision to disassociate yourself with the Seig Heiling far right is what Kathleen Stock would call a totalitarian mindset.

I wonder if Kathleen Stock would see it that way. Probably not, I think she is better than that.

 

[Samson]

Deeming literally associated with Nazis. Willingly. They were actually doing Nazi salutes. She had every opportunity of knowing this as it was the main criticism of the protest before it went ahead, that it was being supported by Nazi's and the far right.

The Liberal Party has always been conservative but it is entirely appropriate that they did not want someone in their party who would associate with Nazis.

But it is nice to know that a principled decision to disassociate yourself with the Seig Heiling far right is what Kathleen Stock would call a totalitarian mindset.

I wonder if Kathleen Stock would see it that way. Probably not, I think she is better than that.

Here is the Hobart event

https://www.youtube.com/live/rt09IHWLi_E?feature=share

I listened to it all to better understand the format.
She has a disabled guest from America who told her mother she wanted to be a man her mother talked the alternative and she is a stable lesbian and glad as hell she never went under the knife.
I know there are people who are hating and not listening, certainly in New Zealand where the minister of immigration just said I wish she would never set foot in NZ. But he is powerless to refuse a visa.
The behaviour of the large crowd of men in Hobart made me revile the gender.

 

[Robin]

Here is the Hobart event

Wait. First tell me. Are you disagreeing with what I said in the part you quoted?

The Victorian Liberal Party did not move against Deeming for her views on gender.

In Australia the Liberal Party have a history of recruiting people with gender critical views.

They moved against her because she knowingly and willingly associated with Nazis.

Can we get that clear?

 

[Robin]

I listened to it all to better understand the format.
She has a disabled guest from America who told her mother she wanted to be a man her mother talked the alternative and she is a stable lesbian and glad as hell she never went under the knife.

But so what? Around the world gender clinics often talk to people and help them decide they are not trans gender. It is the recommended practice to give people therapy to make sure they are really trans gender and really want medical intervention.

Barnes' book has a case history of someone the Tavistock institute helped to decide she was not trans gender

 

[Samson]

But so what? Around the world gender clinics often talk to people and help them decide they are not trans gender. It is the recommended practice to give people therapy to make sure they are really trans gender and really want medical intervention.

Barnes' book has a case history of someone the Tavistock institute helped to decide she was not trans gender

My late brother wished to be a woman, and there was no obvious upside to his plight.
I could empathise for years, but offer no solution.
This is the way of the world, to deny a perfect solution to an intractable dilemma. I am seriously open minded on people beyond a given age employing scarce medical resource to permanently maim their healthy body, but certain it would not be my solution.

An inconvenient truth: Posie Parker does not court Nazis, you are confused on this.

 

[Robin]

Wait. First tell me. Are you disagreeing with what I said in the part you quoted?

The Victorian Liberal Party did not move against Deeming for her views on gender.

In Australia the Liberal Party have a history of recruiting people with gender critical views.

They moved against her because she knowingly and willingly associated with Nazis.

Can we get that clear?

Just to underline this.

Pesutto’s motion, released on Tuesday morning, seeks to expel Deeming from the parliamentary party for her involvement in Saturday’s anti-trans rights rally headlined by an activist “known to be publicly associated with far-right extremist groups”.

 

[Samson]

Are these groups nazis?

 

[Robin]

An inconvenient truth: Posie Parker does not court Nazis, you are confused on this.

People can research and decide for themselves. I have seen these repeated a few places.

Are they all incorrect?

She has further courted controversy after praising far-right campaigner Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (Tommy Robinson) in a Feminist Current podcast.

One incident came after she took a selfie with Hans Jørgen Lysglimt Johansen, a Norwegian neo-Nazi who was probed by police after his comments against Jews and denial of the Holocaust.

She was interviewed by the far-right network Soldiers of Christ Online, and appeared in a video alongside Jean-François Gariépy, a prominent far-right YouTuber who calls for a “white ethno-state”,

Standing for Women’s protest in Newscastle on January 16 sparked controversy after one of the speakers – Lisa Morgan – quoted Adolf Hitler to attack trans rights.

“Do you know the big lie? The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf … The big lie is that trans women are women,” Morgan told the people at the Parker-organised demonstration.

Hatchet wrote: "I kept asking about these right-wing links. My questions were either ignored or met with 'It's not a problem for me'. Posie said she is happy to work with anyone and will freely say so. I am not."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23299549.posie-parker-anti-trans-founder-standing-women/

 

[Robin]

Are these groups nazis?

Would it be OK if they were just far right extremist white supremacists or holocaust deniers?

 

[Samson]

Would it be OK if they were just far right white supremacists or holocaust deniers?

No it would not. However, I consider her research on men in women's spaces critically important. New Zealand is a weird little outpost where politicians are outbidding each other to welcome all self id then say they inherit sacred rights.
This leads to some women deserting gyms swimming pools and many places. Fear has been foisted on the community, so I agree with women like Rolfe, Emily's cat, that men should be banished. New Zealand politicians have swallowed this outrage hook line and sinker. I welcome her for her sensible expressions, and the publicity that might dislodge the complacency from our lost cause leaders.

 

[Robin]

Well, I suppose it never happens that the far right co-opt other people's causes as stalking horses for their own recruitment purposes so I guess there is never any need to be careful about that.

 

[Robin]

No it would not. However, I consider her research on men in women's spaces critically important.

If her research skills are so good, hjow did she get it so completely wrong in the example you have above then? Hadn't she done any research into the accepted practice in dealing with trans children?