Drag Shows!!

[JoeMorgue]

//Total hijack//

What's the etymology on "Drag?"

 

[Darat]

//Total hijack//

What's the etymology on "Drag?"

In the sense of this thread no one knows. Which to me indicates it came from gay sub culture which remains largely opaque to our vision this side of history.

 

[Thermal]

Ah, but if you're claiming (but not claiming- claiming, like, I'm open to correction man, any adult can see that) that drag queens in general and RuPaul in particular are gender fluid and you get corrected, just because you don't like the correction doesn't make it a lie. And doubling down on your error to the point of misreading points (All EC was saying was it's cool to call her an "it", she wasn't, like, saying the same damn thing as RuPaul that pronouns don't matter...even if she said that exact thing) to claim others are lying certainly does eclipse the initial "my impression, that I will fight to the death to defend, but I'm not like convinced, man" claim.

Wareyin. Do you have any problem with the following;

"My impression of drag queens is that they are different from Benny Hill or pantomimers because they are expressing an atypical gender presentation to such a fabulous degree that they have raised it to a standalone art form, that many capitalize on."

Just that. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[Thermal]

Dupulous

 

[wareyin]

Wareyin. Do you have any problem with the following;

"My impression of drag queens is that they are different from Benny Hill or pantomimers because they are expressing an atypical gender presentation to such a fabulous degree that they have raised it to a standalone art form, that many capitalize on."

Just that. Do you have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with it, mainly because it's just...like, your opinion, man.

I don't agree with it, though. I've seen drag queens that were at Benny Hill or Monty Python's level. "Camp drag", I believe. 3 day beard stubble and exposed hairy chests, etc.

 

[Stacyhs]

ANYWAY, this hargle-bargle seems to be dragging down the thread. Aspire to be your most glamourous selves and move on, ladies! *snap* *snap* *swish* *fall down*

 

[Thermal]

I don't have a problem with it, mainly because it's just...like, your opinion, man.

Great. Then we have no issue.

I don't agree with it, though.

You don't agree to what? That it's my impression? It is. If you are disagreeing with something else, that's why these things go on for pages.

I've seen drag queens that were at Benny Hill or Monty Python's level. "Camp drag", I believe. 3 day beard stubble and exposed hairy chests, etc.

True dat. But they also call it Camp Drag, which differentiates it from Drag Queen. It's specifically the Queen thing that I thought set it apart. Like, being a queen is a level up beyond just some guy in a dress.

Remember To Wong Foo? That's kind of what I thought Drag Queening was all about. Snipes and Swayze didn't even acknowledge Leguziomos Chi Chi as a queen yet; he was just "a man in a dress". But they lived it, as kind of an alter-ego.

 

[Robin]

I've seen many drag queens where I have thought I could do it better than they are.

And the Priscilla thing of spending all day in drag isn't typical. When you meet most drag queens in a social situation you don't know they are a drag queen any more than you know someone is a street sweeper or accountant.

 

[Robin]

Since most drag gigs don't pay very well, most drag queens have day jobs,, like teacher or office worker. They don't turn up at the office or the classroom wearing feather boas and fishnet stockings, they dress professionally and appropriately.

 

[Robin]

In the sense of this thread no one knows. Which to me indicates it came from gay sub culture which remains largely opaque to our vision this side of history.

I thought the leading theory is that it was a theatrical term. Maybe because when female roles were all played by men they would wear garments that drag along the ground

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm hesitant to bring this up because I know where it could lead, but why "drag" seems to only go in one direction does seem like someone that has to at least go on the table as part of the discussion at some point.

Although maybe it's just harder to "dress up" in male clothing, I dunno.

It pretty much comes back around to why is it okay for the wayans brothers to put on whiteface for a movie, but it's not okay for anyone to put on blackface. It's the punching up versus punching down thing. And it's in the nature of the stereotypes being portrayed, and whether those stereotypes are ones that support the continued discrimination against a group, or whether those stereotypes elevate the group being portrayed.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The above word salad rant can be reduced to one thing: No, you cannot admit that RuPaul identifies as a gay man.

I do wonder how long that will last though. RuPaul currently has enough of a voice to be able to insist that they identify as a gay male, not as transgender.

On the other hand... Malcolm Michaels said the same thing. On video. Very clearly and with no ambiguity whatsoever. Malcolm was a gay male, who was a drag performer, and had a drag persona of Marsha P. Johnson.

Malcolm ended up retroactively transed after their death. I rather expect the same to happen to RuPaul Andre Charles once they pass.

 

[arthwollipot]

Since most drag gigs don't pay very well, most drag queens have day jobs,, like teacher or office worker. They don't turn up at the office or the classroom wearing feather boas and fishnet stockings, they dress professionally and appropriately.

Ahem except for the one I knew but he was an exception rather than the rule and let's move on.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, here's a couple more if you are really interested. From a Huffpost interview:



https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rupauls-drag-race-logo-vh1_n_58d1b0bce4b0b22b0d17f9aa?5hxh9fw6vsded0a4i=

Which in fairness doesn't even make sense. If you don't commit to an identity, they sell you easily twice as many products.

And his response to a tweet again shows his indifference to a gender identity:



https://twitter.com/RuPaul/status/904761235723362305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E904761235723362305%7Ctwgr%5Eb6835a11b4804c7830ccd4e64b8e0511f1ac07e6%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.distractify.com%2Fp%2Frupaul-pronouns

You don't think it's fair to say he may not be committed to identifying as a man? Just no wiggle room in there anywhere?

I'm rather of the opinion that RuPaul and I share about the same view when it comes to gender identity.

I had to go check, no they aren't a Gen-Xer. Trailing Boomer, but it's a pretty solidly Gen-X sentiment right there.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Nice of you to put that in acare quotes, so I didn't have to point out that it was factually untrue.

And yes, I googled it, wondering if I was completely off base. So far, Stacyhs quote-mined a single obscure interview where RuPaul said he was a man, and I'm not positive that meant gender or sex, or if that was what he identified as at the time, or always. Her second more grasping at straws quote does not mention gender at all, and since gender ID is what we are talking about, that's pretty irrelevant.

I've provided three quotes in his own words where he straight up defies gender identification in plain speaking. So what's your point?

Dude, Thermal, just let it go. RuPaul is a gay male. And they don't care about pronouns.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So EC doesn't mind being called an "it". I have a feeling she did not mean what you think she meant. But since you are so strongly advocating for her by proxy (nice to see your support of her), perhaps she could weigh in her own self, if she's still following the thread? No, wait: maybe it could weigh in for itself? I'm sure you got its meaning spot on

You read her post, and that's what you got out of it? Doesn't mind being called "It"? No wonder you can't understand RuPaul saying basically the same thing. Both claim to not be hung up on pronouns, but Thermal is certain that for RuPaul this means RuPaul is gender fluid (that's not what gender fluid is, but given your difficulties with reading comprehension here, I don't think repeating what you got wrong with an explanation of how you got it wrong will help you) while EC isn't.

Good lords of all religions.

I'm pretty sure that both RuPaul and I mean the same thing: Your hangups with pronouns is irrelevant to me, it does not matter, I don't care. It is meaningless.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Let's get back to drag. My Drag Wall of Fame. Still a work in progress, but I think it illustrates well the vile corrupting force this marginal practice has on our society.

[imgw=640]https://robinsrevision.files.wordpress.com/2023/03/image-3.png?w=783[/imgw]

Bugs Bunny for the win!

 

[Robin]

Still work in progress. Note most of the actual drag queens look the least like caricatures:

[imgw=640]https://robinsrevision.files.wordpress.com/2023/03/image-5.png?w=1024[/imgw]

 

[bruto]

By the way, since someone mentioned wondering about the etymology of "drag," I looked it up a bit, and the OED gives no etymology, but finds the first published instance of the word referring to female attire around 1870, just calling it slang. Some believe the word comes from the tendency of long gowns such as those an actor might wear to drag on the floor. Others suggest it might come from the Yiddish "trogn" or the German "tragen," words for dressing used in the sense of dressing up. In any case it's been around a long time. I think the first use of the term "drag queen" was given as 1941.

 

[Darat]

That's your right if course. I'm not particularly careful about rejecting the word "man" because of the meanings it has for so many, and has had for centuries now. I will use it for linguistic convenience.

What I don't understand is why, when I have cheerfully assented to the terms "sissy", "girly", "effeminate" and so on all my life, then why do people's heads explode when I try to express the same concept with "agender' or "non-binary"?

I think I know where EC is coming from, although I disagree with her about how "woman" has been hijacked. For many years I didn't like the label "man" because of what the label meant in my society - it was as I know you are aware a very restrictive label - what you could be as a "man" was proscribed and woe betide anyone male going outside the boundaries. I remember when just getting one ear pierced called your right to be a "man" in question, wear anything pink and well you were queer. These days that "man" label is rightfully described as "toxic masculinity". That does not mean I ever considered myself anything but male, in regard to pronouns I have always hated the gay "tradition" of referring to other male homosexuals as "she", I know where it came from but it never sat well with me.