Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Last time you appealed to the experts, and actually linked to them, we found out that they didn't say what you said at all. You claimed they said something about "transgender identity" being "valid", but in point of fact they were advocating medical treatment for gender dysphoria. But gender dysphoria is completely different than transgender identity according to you, and they never said anything about your made up bull **** term "valid lived identity".

You're pretending to be in agreement with the experts because you can't argue any of this stuff on its merits, but you have been consistently wrong about that. You don't actually agree with the experts at all. You don't understand what they're saying at all. I think this is the first time I've seen someone construct a straw man to try to agree with it.
 
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You seem to be saying that treatable gender dysphoria implies the existence of an affirmable transgender identity, but that the existence of transgender identity does not imply the existence of gender dysphoria, in any given individual. Am I getting this right?

If so, what (presumably non-medical) accommodations ought to be offered to someone who has an affirmable transgender identity but does meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria?
 
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I, too, would have serious issues with this hypothetical case. That said, I've seen no evidence that the proposed Nebraska law was designed to address such a slipshod approach—even the most cautious approach to youth gender medicine endorsed by the Dutch protocol would be banned.

Apparently even US clinics who claimed to be following the Dutch Protocol weren't actually following it. The original protocol used medical transition only in minors whose GD persisted until puberty following a non-affirmative (neutral or watchful waiting) approach. That is because social transition and affirmation can lead to persistence of GD that would otherwise have desisted. US clinics are using puberty blockers in children following social transition and an affirmative approach.

I don't think US medical organisations can be trusted on this issue, as shown by the problems with the AAP's affirmation policy. I'm not clear whether the setup in the US allows the government to set up an independent review equivalent to the Cass Review, or for treatment to be restricted to research settings.
 
You seem to be saying that treatable gender dysphoria implies the existence of an affirmable transgender identity, but that the existence of transgender identity does not imply the existence of gender dysphoria, in any given individual. Am I getting this right?

If so, what (presumably non-medical) accommodations ought to be offered to someone who has an affirmable transgender identity but does meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria?

LJ has explicitly stated that surgery is appropriate treatment for people without gender dysphoria. He also seems to be extremely confused about what gender dysphoria is.
 
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LJ, do you actually know any transgender people? Like personally know and interact with them? Do you know any young females who have made a seemingly very rapid decision that they're trans and are now getting their breasts removed?

You have a lot of seemingly very strong opinions, but they come across as extremely academic and theoretical. It doesn't seem like you have ever actually interacted with the variety of people out there who now fall under the transgender umbrella, and you certainly don't seem to have any personal acquaintance with people who are going through this right now.
 
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I, too, would have serious issues with this hypothetical case.

It's not hypothetical. It's a very real thing, that is very much happening in my family right now.

It's heartbreaking, because all us know that this is NOT an appropriate treatment for my niece. And it's not like we're a pile of evil transphobes - we are all accepting of my nephew->niece. The older showed signs of dysphoria, and they waited until they were 23 before pursuing any treatment. The younger is not even 18 yet, and will be breastless before they are even adult.
 
LJ...seems to be extremely confused about what gender dysphoria is.
Suffice it to say that isn't how any of this works, at least not last I checked. I'd be rather surprised to learn that the National Health Service is offering transition services to patients who experience "no feelings of internal conflict between...natal [sex] and...trans gender."

Is that, like, the next wave of activism?
 
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Suffice it to say that isn't how any of this works, at least not last I checked. I'd be rather surprised to learn that the National Health Service is offering transition services to patients who experience "no feelings of internal conflict between...natal [sex] and...trans gender."

Is that, like, the next wave of activism?

They do, however, offer transition services to anyone who can parrot the most basic internet jargon around dysphoria, without bothering to actually evaluate the person and learn how persistent or genuine it is.

Go check it out - there's plenty of coaching available on the interwebs for what to say to your doctor so you can get a prescription and surgery without them being able to push the brakes.
 
Suffice it to say that isn't how any of this works, at least not last I checked. I'd be rather surprised to learn that the National Health Service is offering transition services to patients who experience "no feelings of internal conflict between...natal [sex] and...trans gender."

Is that, like, the next wave of activism?

Many gender clinics in the US say that gender dysphoria is not needed to medically transition, even in minors, from what I understand.
 
Many gender clinics in the US say that gender dysphoria is not needed to medically transition, even in minors, from what I understand.

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Correct in what sense? There isn't a right answer in the sky here, we have to balance probable harms and benefits for ourselves. The beneficial payoff of prescribing puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and affirming surgeries was supposedly the lessening of suffering associated with the ongoing experience of dysphoria. What is the payoff in the above scenario, and does it balance out (probable) loss of function?

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Correct in what sense? There isn't a right answer in the sky here, we have to balance probable harms and benefits for ourselves.

The beneficial payoff of prescribing puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and affirming surgeries was the lessening of suffering associated with the ongoing experience of dysphoria. What is the payoff in the above scenario, and does it balance out (probable) loss of function?

The payoff is $$$$$$$$$$$
 
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Like Tavistock? You were once singing from their hymn book, are you still doing so? After all, they were, not so long ago, the archetypical adults in the room.
 
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? I'm not sure if you misread the post you were replying to, but the issue is with some US clinics offering *medical* transition without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, something which is definitely not the mainstream medical position in the UK. If you think the first position is "correct", then you must disagree with the approach taken by mainstream medicine in the UK.

This is NHS England's position:

Gender Dysphoria may be characterised by a strong and persistent cross-gender identification (such as stating a desire to be the other sex or frequently passing as the other sex) coupled with persistent discomfort with a person’s sex (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems).

Not all transgender or non-binary people will have gender dysphoria, but only those with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria are eligible for the various interventions on the NHS pathway of care.
 
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LJ, do you actually know any transgender people? Like personally know and interact with them?

It's not hypothetical. It's a very real thing, that is very much happening in my family right now.

It's heartbreaking, because all us know that this is NOT an appropriate treatment for my niece. And it's not like we're a pile of evil transphobes - we are all accepting of my nephew->niece. The older showed signs of dysphoria, and they waited until they were 23 before pursuing any treatment. The younger is not even 18 yet, and will be breastless before they are even adult.

EC, do you not see the vast hypocrisy here? A good part of your argument in these trans and drag threads have been that men should not speak for an experience that they have never been through and can never be through even when we are relaying the experiences and thoughts that women have conveyed to us.

Now, here, you are arguing to know what is better for the trans people in your life than the people who are actually living their own experiences, simply because you are witnessing it. You aren’t even trying to relay their views or positions, as others and myself were trying to do, but only your own opinion of it.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t shut down discussion because I am trying to relay the perspectives of women, trans, feminists, etc. that I know and have had these discussions with, because I happen to be a straight cis-man, and then pronounce judgment on people whose life experiences you will never know and, from the sounds of it, haven’t bothered to take the time to listen to.

Now, as I have been saying, I do know trans people. I interact with them on a regular basis for around 2 decades. When a former coworker announced that she was transitioning, I was able to connect her with the correct local resources to start the evaluations the right way. For all the fear mongering over doctors rubber stamping people, there are legitimate paths and evaluations to help facilitate the transition.
 
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I don't really care what you think it implies. It's the truth. "Top surgery" as a treatment for gender dysphoria is purely cosmetic. That's just a fact. It offers zero functional gain, its sole purpose is to change a person's appearance.



Why would surgical intervention be necessary if transgender identity isn't a disorder? Why would it be therapeutic if a transgender person wasn't experiencing any distress?

Your entire conception of transgender identity, gender dysphoria, and even what a disorder means is self-contradictory nonsense.



Yeah, no. Surgeries with serious risks and negative side effects are only considered medically necessary if they're to treat a problem. The medical profession approves of sex change operations because they are considered effective treatments for a disorder, namely gender dysphoria. There is no medical consensus on surgeries for "transgender identity" without dysphoria. Hell, I don't think there's even medical consensus on what "transgender identity" without gender dysphoria even means. You certainly don't have a handle on it, since you don't even know what gender dysphoria means.


With the very greatest of respect, I don't think you understand certain facets of this issue correctly.

Mainstream medicine recognises transgender identity as a valid condition; that is to say, mainstream medicine does not regard transgender identity to be a mental health disorder. Gender dysphoria IS regarded (rightly) as a disorder. But the usual recommended medical pathway for treating gender dysphoria (in adults, especially) is to take steps to affirm the person's transgender identity (which, remember, is not itself a mental health disorder).

Furthermore, there are plenty of people with transgender identity who do not experience gender dysphoria. You seem to misunderstand this - and you also appear to misunderstand the fact that for someone presenting with transgender identity but without gender dysphoria, mainstream medicine will often consider it appropriate and therapeutic to intervene medically or surgically to affirm that person's transgender identity. In other words, the presence of gender dysphoria is not a necessary precursor to giving a transgender person medical or surgical treatments to aid their transition.

I was somewhat surprised to read your strident statements of fact on this issue... when your statements of fact were, in fact, incorrect. And I address them in this post in the hope of promoting well-informed debate.
 
EC, do you not see the vast hypocrisy here? A good part of your argument in these trans and drag threads have been that men should not speak for an experience that they have never been through and can never be through even when we are relaying the experiences and thoughts that women have conveyed to us.

Now, here, you are arguing to know what is better for the trans people in your life than the people who are actually living their own experiences, simply because you are witnessing it. You aren’t even trying to relay their views or positions, as others and myself were trying to do, but only your own opinion of it.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t shut down discussion because I am trying to relay the perspectives of women, trans, feminists, etc. that I know and have had these discussions with, because I happen to be a straight cis-man, and then pronounce judgment on people whose life experiences you will never know and, from the sounds of it, haven’t bothered to take the time to listen to.

Now, as I have been saying, I do know trans people. I interact with them on a regular basis for around 2 decades. When a former coworker announced that she was transitioning, I was able to connect her with the correct local resources to start the evaluations the right way. For all the fear mongering over doctors rubber stamping people, there are legitimate paths and evaluations to help facilitate the transition.


Yes, there does appear to be this rather glaring contradiction in EC's position. And it's unfortunately a contradiction that seems to be rife among the so-called "gender critical" commentators.

Fortunately, the people whom we entrust to weigh up the many and varied considerations on this issue - chiefly those in mainstream medical theory & practice, our legislatures, and our judiciaries and regulatory bodies - are taking a great deal of time and effort (not to mention their huge wells of combined experience, expertise and education) to navigate their way towards a position which is optimal for all of society.

And - outside of certain hard-right legislatures (the legislatures which, incidentally, typically also reject evolution in favour of creationism, and who reject the right of women to have safe abortions) - they are clearly and unequivocally coming down in favour of recognising and protecting the rights & safety of transgender people.

All of them are of course very well aware of the need to protect the rights & safety of other groups (notably, in this case, cis women), and as such they are including proportionate adjustments to meet that end. And they are also well aware that there will be a clear need to monitor the implementation of new legislation and to take remedial action should there be adverse unintended consequences.

Personally, I place far, far more trust in mainstream medicine science and practice, and those governmental bodies which have examined the matter in great detail and taken extensive consultations from all interested parties... than I place in the views of random inexpert extremist commentators on internet forums or social media. And I'm absolutely comfortable in taking that position.

Furthermore, it's obviously noticeable that as transgender rights legislation and other protections have been introduced in various progressive jurisdictions around the world, not only has the sky not fallen in: there has in fact been little or no adverse impact on other groups in society, nor any lingering unintended consequences. Yes, of course there have been individual examples of failures in procedure or misinterpretations of laws/regulations/medical pathways - but all of these have been able to be quickly addressed and fixed.

I feel highly confident that within 5-7 years maximum, almost all liberal democracies will be in a position where a) transgender people are recognised and protected in accordance with their trans gender, b) the optimal amount of proportionate adjustment will have been determined and enacted (after some degree of "trial and error" period, which is virtually unavoidable), and c) society as a whole will be better off as a result. And I feel equally confident that within, say, 20-30 years from now, people (other than any remaining small pockets of reactionary bigots) will look back and wonder how there was ever even an argument against giving transgender people the rights and protections they deserve.
 
I don't think anyone here is arguing that transgender people should not be given the rights and protections they deserve. It's just a question of finding the best way to do that whilst also safeguarding the rights of others. By which I don't just mean the rights of ciswomen, but also the right of temporarily confused young people to not be encouraged to have irreversible surgery they may one day come to bitterly regret.
 
This is episode 341 of The Guilty Feminist podcast. It's all audio and definitely NSFW, so wear headphones.


My wife shared it with me and I think it (starting around the 57 minute mark) lends support to what I was saying about how it really doesn't matter what we think about trans people and safe spaces. What matters is how the next generation or two thinks and they don't care about labels as much as my generation and older does. And, being mostly older feminists, they also touch on the safe spaces they fought hard for are becoming not as important and how that can be a good thing.
 
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