Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

..

As I pointed out, this story is originally dated August 2019, although there was an update to it just over a year ago. It is also something that happened in India Georgia.

John has googled to find something, somewhere, that suggests women can be violent to children. Gosh, he found something. Over three years ago in Tblisi, Georgia, from a report in an Indian newspaper. Well done that sleuth!

Meanwhile horrifying offences against women and children carried out by trans-identifying men pop up almost daily in my Twitter feed, no need to google for them. And they're in Britain (I may have highlighted some in Europe or North America too). This is not really comparable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And here's another one.

Woman distributed indecent images over WhatsApp then claimed it was 'role play'




Child pornography. Shocking, and an especially shocking thing for a woman to have done, no?

Oh, we all know where this is going by now. There is a photo of "Ketan", and "Ketan" is indisputably a man. A long long way down the article we finally get to it, in the judge's sentencing remarks.




So the judge decided to spare this man a prison sentence.

This is not to tar all gender-confused men with the same brush. However the sheer frequency with which these stories appear is disturbing. Please note that all the stories I have linked to are current - within the past two or three days unless I have made a mistake. They all appear in my Twitter feed, unsolicited. I am not Googling for things and finally coming up with something from over three years ago in India Tblisi, as John has done. The push to force women to #bekind and accept this group of men into their intimate spaces is generally founded on the assertion, explicit or implicit, that trans-identifying men are harmless, considerate, even vulnerable individuals.

Some of them may be. But many of them demonstrably are not.

Judges are teaching evil males that if they claim a transgender identity, they won't get punished for their evil. Or at least, they'll get punished less.

I would bet cash money that if an actual FEMALE had distributed this horrific child porn, they would have been subjected to the most extreme punishment allowable. But because these poor, delicate males have "lady feels", they get a free pass.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And here's another one.
This is not to tar all gender-confused men with the same brush. However the sheer frequency with which these stories appear is disturbing. Please note that all the stories I have linked to are current - within the past two or three days unless I have made a mistake. They all appear in my Twitter feed, unsolicited. I am not Googling for things and finally coming up with something from over three years ago in India Tblisi, as John has done. The push to force women to #bekind and accept this group of men into their intimate spaces is generally founded on the assertion, explicit or implicit, that trans-identifying men are harmless, considerate, even vulnerable individuals.

Some of them may be. But many of them demonstrably are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrkOCiSotSA

 

[Rolfe]

I found this article by Kathleen Stock interesting.

The problem with "Trans Women Are Women"

She takes as her starting point the recent "UnHerd Britain" poll about attitudes to transgender people, which produced equivocal results which started to get somewhat less equivocal among a population that has recently been exposed to the Adam Graham debacle.

For years then, under the guise of equality, lobbyists have been spinning this line in UK workplaces, youth groups, schools, universities, hospitals, media outlets, government departments, police forces, local councils, and so on — and yes, in prison services too. They have relentlessly insisted that the question “are trans women, women?” is a test of individual character rather than a basic request for information. According to their imposed logic, “strongly agree” correlates with “minimally compassionate”, and “strongly disagree” correlates with “genocidal”. It’s as if the public has been sold a subliminal version of the Peter Pan story: say you believe that fairies exist, and you can save Tinkerbell from dying.

Meanwhile, for most for this same period, the British media has failed in its basic duty to investigate LGBT+ propaganda properly, much of the time simply passing it along to readers unexpurgated, as if doing PR. Even now, if your main news source is The Guardian or the BBC you will be lucky to have come across such complicating facts as, say, that around 60% of trans women in UK prisons are sex offenders; or that the starkly rising rates of rape among “women” may not be what they seem; or that murder rates of trans people in the UK are gratifyingly extremely low, and for the last few years non-existent. The story of the martyred UK trans woman continues to flourish, as does the moral pressure to try to keep her alive by saying the right words. Small wonder, then, that people still seem confused.

As with earlier polls, it seems that people are relatively happy to nod along with a general statement, but when the questions drill down into what that statement actually means, a different picture emerges. (This is very similar to the findings of the poll reported by Wings Over Scotland.)

Relatedly, perhaps we should also consider that what people sometimes say might not actually be that good an indication of what they really believe. Many philosophers think that the content of a person’s beliefs should not be identified only in terms of individual things he says. Rather, his beliefs should be gauged in relation to how his statements more generally fit together with his behaviour and other expressed thoughts (or do not). For instance, someone who says she believes that the sky is falling in, but who doesn’t duck or otherwise mention it in other relevant contexts, is perhaps not being entirely reliable.

Equally, someone who in one context seems tempted by the thought that trans women are women, but who in another is clear that they don’t belong in women’s spaces or sports, perhaps doesn’t really believe that trans women are really women in the first place, no matter what she says directly on the matter. In that case, what the polling from Scotland may be telling us — at least, reading between the lines — is that for many north of the border, trans women are in fact men. When confronted with the evidence of eyes and ears, the decade-long guilt-trip is apparently running out of steam.

Bear this in mind the next time someone says something like "women are more in favour of recognising transwomen as women than men are". Women in particular are socially conditioned to #bekind and nod allong to questions such as "is it nice to be nice?" But once it's made clear to them what the actual consequences of being nice are, it's a different story.

 

[LondonJohn]

Blimey. I noticed this character Kellie-Jay Keen cropping up at (or perhaps inserting herself into) most of these saddo rallies on their ersatz UK roadshow denouncing transgender people (sorry: protecting women's rights!).

I was genuinely - absolutely genuinely - stunned when I just found her Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull

The list of extreme-right-wing organisations and ultra-conservative Christian groups she's not only aligned with, but has openly supported and endorsed. Bloody hell.

I guess there ain't no such thing as due diligence when it comes to zealous causes founded on group-hatred, huh?

This proverbial saying came to mind:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/04/04/company-keep/

 

[LondonJohn]

And here's another one.

Woman distributed indecent images over WhatsApp then claimed it was 'role play'




Child pornography. Shocking, and an especially shocking thing for a woman to have done, no?

Oh, we all know where this is going by now. There is a photo of "Ketan", and "Ketan" is indisputably a man. A long long way down the article we finally get to it, in the judge's sentencing remarks.




So the judge decided to spare this man a prison sentence.

This is not to tar all gender-confused men with the same brush. However the sheer frequency with which these stories appear is disturbing. Please note that all the stories I have linked to are current - within the past two or three days unless I have made a mistake. They all appear in my Twitter feed, unsolicited. I am not Googling for things and finally coming up with something from over three years ago in India Tblisi, as John has done. The push to force women to #bekind and accept this group of men into their intimate spaces is generally founded on the assertion, explicit or implicit, that trans-identifying men are harmless, considerate, even vulnerable individuals.

Some of them may be. But many of them demonstrably are not.

And here's ANOTHER one.....

Woman arrested for sexually assaulting her 2-year-old granddaughter

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-jailed-life-rape-and-sexual-abuse-young-girl

This evil ciswoman instigated the horrific crimes, then drew two cismen into her depraved activities.

Now, in fairness, obviously not all ciswomen instigate the horrific rape and sexual assault of their toddler-age grandchildren, and then draw cismen into their offending. It's only fair to point that out.

 

[Rolfe]

And here's ANOTHER one.....

Woman arrested for sexually assaulting her 2-year-old granddaughter

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-jailed-life-rape-and-sexual-abuse-young-girl

This evil ciswoman instigated the horrific crimes, then drew two cismen into her depraved activities.

Now, in fairness, obviously not all ciswomen instigate the horrific rape and sexual assault of their toddler-age grandchildren, and then draw cismen into their offending. It's only fair to point that out.

Yes, we all know about these cases, even the one you didn't manage to link to, because they're notorious. Half the population of the world is women, so if you search far back enough or geographically wide enough, you'll find the occasional example of almost anything.

I doubt that 1% of the population of the world consists of transwomen, but I have brand new cases of sexual criminality popping up in my Twitter feed weekly at least, without having to go anywhere near google.

Perhaps you missed the part where I pointed out that transwomen are imprisoned (in England and Wales) for sexual offences at 1,645 times the rate that women are, on a per capita basis.

 

[Rolfe]

Blimey. I noticed this character Kellie-Jay Keen cropping up at (or perhaps inserting herself into) most of these saddo rallies on their ersatz UK roadshow denouncing transgender people (sorry: protecting women's rights!).

I was genuinely - absolutely genuinely - stunned when I just found her Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull

The list of extreme-right-wing organisations and ultra-conservative Christian groups she's not only aligned with, but has openly supported and endorsed. Bloody hell.

I guess there ain't no such thing as due diligence when it comes to zealous causes founded on group-hatred, huh?

This proverbial saying came to mind:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/04/04/company-keep/

That's another fallacy, something like guilt by association.

This other proverbial saying comes to mind. Just because the worst person in the world believes that gravity exist doesn't mean we're all going to fly off into outer space any second now.

 

[Rolfe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrkOCiSotSA

That's rather good, although there doesn't seem to be a part 2.

 

[Elaedith]

Yes, we all know about these cases, even the one you didn't manage to link to, because they're notorious. Half the population of the world is women, so if you search far back enough or geographically wide enough, you'll find the occasional example of almost anything.

I doubt that 1% of the population of the world consists of transwomen, but I have brand new cases of sexual criminality popping up in my Twitter feed weekly at least, without having to go anywhere near google.

Perhaps you missed the part where I pointed out that transwomen are imprisoned (in England and Wales) for sexual offences at 1,645 times the rate that women are, on a per capita basis.

Doesn't matter. Unless women never ever ever commit any offences of the type that are almost always committed by males, that means biological sex is completely irrelevant and everything should be based on gender identity. /s

 

[Rolfe]

Your midnight check-in on the petition reports 79,670 signatures, so 113 new signatures today. Still dying on its arse.

The new magic number is 294.6.

 

[Rolfe]

LJ's "they said it, I believe it, that settles it" approach is backfiring not just here but in a lot of places. Places where TRAs have long counted on allies or captures, to advance their agenda.

I think it comes back to the Denton's Playbook thing. So long as they worked in the dark, behind the scenes, influencing policy and getting laws passed without public discussion or scrutiny, they got away with it. Like piggybacking the Irish self-ID legislation on the abortion reform legislation everybody wanted passed.

If you give people a questionnaire that starts, "It's nice to be nice, agree or disagree?" you'll get pretty widespread agreement. But if you then explain to people that if they agree to be nice their salaries will be halved, they'll have to work an extra five years before they can get their pension, and it will rain all day on weekends and public holidays, you'll get a very different answer when you ask your original question again.

People who haven't thought much about all this but simply realised that agreeing TWAW was the "nice" thing to do, are now starting to see the detail of what actually happens if you take this to its logical conclusions.

Denton's et al must have realised they couldn't go on working in the shadows forever. Eventually people were going to notice things like men competing in women's sports, men in women's changing rooms and rapists in women's prisons. They must have been hoping that by the time it was noticed their operation would have succeeded in permating so many legislations and institutions that it would be impossible to disentangle it and row it back.

I don't know if they're right or not. When the public en masse get outraged about something, politicians tend to look to their own skins. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Rolfe]

Fake trans applicants ‘could trick universities’
Preferential entry risks the system being gamed

But I thought they told us that everybody knows who they are and we must believe them when they tell us. Surely nobody would go through the arduous process of becoming trans and make themselves into one of the most marginalised people in society just to get into uni? (See also, nobody has ever had to pretend to be something they're not just to get into uni.)

 

[Ziggurat]

And here's ANOTHER one.....

Woman arrested for sexually assaulting her 2-year-old granddaughter

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-jailed-life-rape-and-sexual-abuse-young-girl

This evil ciswoman instigated the horrific crimes, then drew two cismen into her depraved activities.

Now, in fairness, obviously not all ciswomen instigate the horrific rape and sexual assault of their toddler-age grandchildren, and then draw cismen into their offending. It's only fair to point that out.

What I find interesting about this case is that it actually exemplifies several key points which don’t help your case at all. In particular, as I have said before, female sexual predator patterns don’t match male sexual predator patterns. More specifically, females rarely prey on strangers, and this case matches that pattern. The victim was well known to the predator, and she had regular access to the victim. This matters because the primary risk from male predators gaining access to female spaces is from predators who DO prey on strangers.

So you haven’t revealed that ciswomen are a risk. Instead, you have shown that access to male only spaces makes no real difference to female predators (be they cis or trans), whereas access to female spaces does make a difference to many male predators (likewise cis or trans). The dividing line isn’t cis versus trans, but male versus female. And your case doesn’t contradict that, it’s in full agreement with it.

 

[Ziggurat]

Doesn't matter. Unless women never ever ever commit any offences of the type that are almost always committed by males, that means biological sex is completely irrelevant and everything should be based on gender identity. /s

You are selling your position short here. It isn’t just that female sexual predators are rarer. That’s true, but it’s actually not the most important issue. Far more important is the fact that female predator patterns are different. And the case LJ pointed to exemplifies some of those key differences. Those differences are a key part of why predatory males have an incentive to claim trans status, but predatory females do not.

So it isn’t even about trans people being predators or not predators. It’s about not rewarding predators who CLAIM trans status. Because if you give them a strong incentive to, that’s what they are going to do, even if they aren’t really trans. And nothing about the case LJ posted challenges that in any way.

 

[Francesca R]

Not at all.

Glad that's cleared up.

And yes, at present I DO consider it to constitute predatory behavior. [ . . . ] A person who is knowingly and intentionally transgressing norms in a way that any reasonable person would EXPECT to cause fear, discomfort, and concern in others is 100% behaving in a predatory manner.

Thank you. With your wording it does not seem possible for a trans woman to enter a female only space without doing this (unless, say, they simply did not know it was a female space or went in by accident).

It follows from this that you think that every trans woman who is in a female-only space is behaving in a predatory manner, every time they do it. Regardless of their intention, motivation whatever. Regardless of whether the prevailing rules allow them to do this or not. Because they are trans women (IE biologically male)

And you can't see that that is intolerance. Or transphobia.

[ . . . ] your only response is to insinuate that I'm "intolerant" of people who knowingly and intentionally violate social norms in a way that are guaranteed to make people feel intimidated and frightened?

Yes, see above.

 

[lionking]

Glad that's cleared up.

Thank you. With your wording it does not seem possible for a trans woman to enter a female only space without doing this (unless, say, they simply did not know it was a female space or went in by accident).

It follows from this that you think that every trans woman who is in a female-only space is behaving in a predatory manner, every time they do it. Regardless of their intention, motivation whatever. Regardless of whether the prevailing rules allow them to do this or not. Because they are trans women (IE biologically male)

And you can't see that that is intolerance. Or transphobia.

Yes, see above.

Well I see it as risk management.

 

[Francesca R]

WWhy is your immediate assumption to think that the male had a LEGAL RIGHT to be there?

There is no reason to suppose otherwise. Many workplace or otherwise corporate/private toilets are open to gender identification. If that one wasn't, then that trans woman was contravening a policy being there. I assume they were not doing that.

Why is your immediate reaction to dismiss the concerns of the female who was frightened out of a space intended for female use?

It wasn't.

Why is your reaction to defend the male who is in a female-only space?

My reaction was to call out the twitterer who in my view dressed it up as deliberately predatory, via curated selection of material, as being transphobic.

 

[Rolfe]

Glad that's cleared up.

Thank you. With your wording it does not seem possible for a trans woman to enter a female only space without doing this (unless, say, they simply did not know it was a female space or went in by accident).

It follows from this that you think that every trans woman who is in a female-only space is behaving in a predatory manner, every time they do it. Regardless of their intention, motivation whatever. Regardless of whether the prevailing rules allow them to do this or not. Because they are trans women (IE biologically male)

And you can't see that that is intolerance. Or transphobia.

Yes, see above.

It's intolerance. It's a refusal to tolerate something unacceptable. We do not have to tolerate unacceptable behaviour. And as for transphobia, I've got to the point where I'll happily embrace the epithet. It seems that anything other than full capitulation to the wishes of the trans person is transphobia, and since I'm not prepared to capitulate to the wishes of trans people in a number of areas, call me what you like.

As I said earlier, I'm not entirely on board with the word "predator" here, but having said that, I don't reject it competely, because by forcing themselves into female single-sex spaces autogynaephile men are performing their fetish and using the women there as unconsenting props in that performance. This is unacceptable behaviour and I'm surprised you condone it.

Any transwoman who is read as male by the women in the space is transgressing women's boundaries, by inserting a male body into a space that should be male-free, and making the women aware that he has done that. "Adrienne" in the original discussion clearly knew that women would perceive him as male, but he went in anyway, because his being in there was more important to him than the comfort and modesty of the women.

I am not personally concerned by men who are read as female. Yes it is a transgression, but it is a transgression the women are unaware of, so it's a theoretical sin. But forcing your self-evidently male body into a female single-sex space is transgressive. It destroys the space as a female-only environment and renders it mixed-sex, without the consent of the people for whom the space was created.

Edited by jimbob: 

Rule 12 violation snipped

 

[Francesca R]

It's intolerance. It's a refusal to tolerate something unacceptable. We do not have to tolerate unacceptable behaviour. And as for transphobia, I've got to the point where I'll happily embrace the epithet.

Way to entirely miss the point. The intolerance is the calling (and believing that) every trans woman who enters a female only space is a predator under all circumstances. It is obvious that this is not the case. Yet this is what Emily's Cat, and it seems you, do. I think it's what ripx4nutmeg did too. It's not necessary to adopt such an intolerant stance just because one is opposed to trans women having access to female only settings; it's your choice.

It seems that anything other than full capitulation to the wishes of the trans person is transphobia

That's nonsense.

Edited by jimbob: 

Rule 12 violation and response snipped