Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

Here's the link to the Record article itself.

'Trans' butcher arrested in connection with disappearance of Scots schoolgirl

On their Facebook profile, Miller lists their gender as “female”.

On another Facebook profile under the name Amy George, they describe themselves as a “single female interested in single females”.

Actually nothing that hasn't been on Twitter all evening, and all the pictures have the face blanked out.

AGP is a terrible thing. Although to be fair it doesn't usually seem to lead to arrest in connection with the disappearance of an 11 year old girl.

 

[Lord Muck oGentry]

ETA: Look at the link I just opened! On gender-critical disputes.

Good stuff there. Helen Joyce's point about the mischief of admitting inconsistency into maths is well taken. The affinity with the logicians' Principle of Explosion is evident:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

Once we accept, for example, that a person who has fathered children can be a woman because he was born in the wrong body, we come to lawyers gravely intoning her penis. Outies must be innies, and ... Dammit, there goes geometry!


On a different note: I see that Mary Harrington got a mention. I don't know her stuff well, but there's an eye-popping article on her substack:

https://reactionaryfeminist.substack.com/p/brain-dead-gestators-are-feminist

It links to an article about Whole Body Gestational Donation.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11017-022-09599-8


I'm dusting off Frank Herbert's books to find out where the Tleilaxu women are and where the Bene Tleilax source their axolotl tanks.

 

[Rolfe]

I didn't know about the Principle of Explosion. That pretty much sums it up, and explains the contradictions in the trans position too.

 

[d4m10n]

This is more of a UK one, but 'The end of the world is flat' by Simon Edge is the first novel that I am aware of to satirize gender identity theory and it's promotion by heavily-funded lobby groups. It is actually a satire based on what has happed to Stonewall UK and features heretical True Earth Rejecting Globularists who refuse to accept flat-earth theory.

As I already mentioned, that was an excellent read. Since one good turn deserves another, thought I'd recommend this memoir.

...when her husband begins crossdressing, she sees no problem--she enjoys flouting the straight world's pointless rules. Trouble is brewing, though. Jamie's dive into the world of identity leads to shifting values, sexual dysfunction and a crippling depression. Still deeply in love with the kind, outdoorsy folksinger she once knew, Shannon is committed to working through these challenges. But she is blindsided by the unusual demands of gender dysphoria and learns the hard way that compassion, communication, and even love sometimes just aren’t enough.

I'm about ⅔ of the way in and it's ******* heartbreaking.

 

[Sherkeu]

Sexual mimicry in nature is an act of deception and predation.

Thanks for the reminder on this one...
I looked into this today (Sexual Mimickry)- searching for mammals- and found one example repeated over and over: The Spotted Hyena. And down the rabbit hole I went trying to figure out how they landed in the 'sexual mimic' category when the facts didnt fit.

The genitalia of the female closely resembles that of the male; the clitoris is shaped and positioned like a penis, a pseudo-penis, and is capable of erection. The female also possesses no external vagina (vaginal opening), as the labia are fused to form a pseudo-scrotum. The pseudo-penis is traversed to its tip by a central urogenital canal, through which the female urinates, copulates and gives birth. The pseudo-penis can be distinguished from the males' genitalia by its somewhat shorter length, greater thickness, and more rounded glans.

Calling this sexual mimicry doesn't fit- by definition.
So what if a clitoris is oversized and can urinate?
Hyenas do not seem at all confused or tricked. All the female hyenas are still looking and acting like the other female hyenas. The last thing any female hyena would want to mimic... is a male hyena!

The retractable peniform clitoris is more commonly used for female greetings and female social deference. You pay homage to a female overlord near you by exposing a vulnerable body part to be sniffed and inspected. It may also act as a sort of mating guard - no retraction means no action!


I did come across a 'lesson' plan for HS Gender-Inclusive Biology

ALL FEMALE SPOTTED HYENAS HAVE FUNCTIONAL PENISES. THEY USE IT PEE, SIGNAL, ANALLY MOUNT MALES & FEMALES FOR DOMINANCE, AND GIVE BIRTH
Editors note: Earlier, the author defines “penis” in this discussion as something the animal can pee through. —RXS

The first sentence jumps right in to redefine "intersex"... and only if I am being generous not to just call it a lie:

Intersex plumbing is found in ALL females of the spotted hyena

 

[LondonJohn]

Here's the link to the Record article itself.

'Trans' butcher arrested in connection with disappearance of Scots schoolgirl




Actually nothing that hasn't been on Twitter all evening, and all the pictures have the face blanked out.

AGP is a terrible thing. Although to be fair it doesn't usually seem to lead to arrest in connection with the disappearance of an 11 year old girl.

I think you might mean "transgender identity is a thing".

And continuing on the theme of "fairness", I of course could (if I could be bothered, which I cannot) list plenty of horrific criminal acts committed by females on children. But then I'd be using extreme examples to try to tar all females with the same brush, wouldn't I? I might even add the words "to be fair", to make it seem like that wasn't my obvious intention.....

 

[Ziggurat]

I think you might mean "transgender identity is a thing".

And continuing on the theme of "fairness", I of course could (if I could be bothered, which I cannot) list plenty of horrific criminal acts committed by females on children. But then I'd be using extreme examples to try to tar all females with the same brush, wouldn't I? I might even add the words "to be fair", to make it seem like that wasn't my obvious intention.....

What policy recommendations flow from the existence of female child predators? You might actually find agreement on that point.

 

[Nessie]

The pile of straw - I agree with you about that - is what is being peddled by multiple trans activists in their campaign to bully and force women to #bekind.

The statistics on murder rates (I don't have any on common assault) show transwomen to be the safest demographic in society. Not only are they mudered at a lower rate (per head of population) than men (and bear in mind that most murder victims are men), they are murdered at a lower rate than women are. It has been said with some truth that on the face of the statistics, the best thing a man can do to reduce his chance of being murdered is to present as a transwoman.

In fact transwomen are the perpetrators of murder more often than they are the victims.

It's remarkable how often we read statements such as your last sentence, and yet how difficult it is to find actual examples of it happening. I'd have thought that if it was a real problem, someone might have collated some cases to give us a feel of the problem.

I suspect transwomen avoid toxic male spaces, such as rough pub men's toilets and football matches.

 

[Matthew Best]

So do I.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure. But transwomen were not evicted from male spaces. The problem cases are transwomen who want to invade women’s spaces because they get perverse satisfaction from doing so. No matter how safe and welcome they might be in male spaces, that won’t satisfy their urges. I don’t say this to excuse male violence, but it’s not the real issue here. And as far as I can tell, it’s exceedingly rare. Most cases of male violence against transwomen have nothing to do with bathrooms or changing rooms.

One of the biggest talking points from the TRA side is that transgender identified males aren't safe in male spaces, and they point to the documented cases of transgender identified males being beaten up or otherwise abused - by males.

If it's true that males don't ever abuse transwomen who are in male spaces, then someone ought to make that clear to the TRAs.

On the other hand, however, I'm inclined to believe that there is at least some marginal risk to transgender identified males in male spaces. I could be wrong... but we do have the history of gay males being attacked and abused in male spaces by other males, and we do have the history of transgender identified males in prison being attacked and abused by other males.

Obviously not all males... but the male half of the species does have a lot of violence and aggression that might benefit from being addressed. I'm of two minds about this though. If I step back from my personal experiences and remember that we're animals, there are sound evolutionary advantages to males being more aggressive and violent. I'm not 100% certain that removing that drive to aggression would be beneficial for the species as a whole. I kind of fall on the side of setting up guardrails for when it's acceptable and when it is not, and for allowing safe male-free spaces for females and children (who bear an undue cost for male violence on the whole).

But I’ll be honest: I don’t want Jessica Yaniv in my daughter’s bathroom, but I don’t want him in my son’s bathroom either. He’s just a creep, and shouldn’t be around children of either sex.

True. But then, I also don't believe that Yaniv is actually transgender in any rational sense of the word. They are a predatory with a predilection for pubescent females, who opportunistically exploits the gigantic gaping loophole that is self-id.

 

[Emily's Cat]

"Genuinely feel they're the wrong gender."

And no doubt you call yourself a sceptic.

Meh. You can quibble with language, but the sentiment exists. No matter what language you use, whether it's clinical or colloquial, there are assuredly people who have a significant disconnect between what is observed of their sexed body and what their brain presents as their body-image-map. If BIID and anorexia are accepted as disorders of self-perception, there's no reason to think that the same disorder cannot be present with respect to sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Here in the U.S. the more patriarchal political party has been defending single sex leagues and spaces, while the party which enjoys much more female support is promoting self-i.d. and the like. Possibly things are very different on your side of the pond, but I am skeptical.

Oh, very different. Trust me. Most of the women who are doing the work on this are left-leaning, and absolutely furious with the parties they used to support, used to belong to even, over their refusal to listen and absolute determination to throw women's rights down the toilet.

Even the Conservative politicians who are talking sense are mostly women. Male politicians are either open trans allies or in hiding.

It's not so clear cut in the US. You're both right and both wrong.

Yes, d4m10n, the religious right has been objecting to transgender policies for a long time. But they are objecting for a very different reason, and in a different way, than left-leaning females object. And yes, the Democratic party in the US still has a higher proportion of female supporters than the Republican party has.

But Rolfe is also correct - one of the largest bastions of objection to SELF-ID in the US is coming from left-leaning females.

Feminists are very largely NOT conservatives.

The religious right, which aligns itself with the Republican party at present, has a vested interest in enforcing a patriarchal world view. That view includes a regressive perception of sex-based roles that needs to be able to strictly adhere to social stereotypes of males and females. That view cannot allow for males to dress in stereotypically female attire, because it relies on a strict distinction between the social roles of males and females. This is the view that has resulted in 13 states in the US having completely outlawed abortion of any sort, and which was fundamental in disallowing federal funding to be used to oral contraception. They do not view females as equal participants in society, and thus, they seek to oppose any policies which would further that goal.

Feminists, which align with the Democratic party (but which is rapidly changing), have a vested interest in the liberation of females from the social roles that the religious right seeks to force upon us. We seek the equal participation of females in all aspects of society, and we seek to remove the obstacle of male violence from females, as this is a barrier to our participation. Feminists, however, have no objection to transgender identified people as such. Our objection is to male people invading female safe spaces and overriding the consent and boundaries of females.

That these two extremely different goals find a shallow agreement on one topic is coincidence. It is absolutely not indicative of any actual agreement in sentiment.

 

[Emily's Cat]

For the record I am not and never have been conservative and I will lay a large bet that most regular posters are the same. Yes I know of a few exceptions.

This is the distinction between "liberal" and "progressive", imo.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'll illustrate just how wrong/ignorant you are with a counter-example: given that transwomen are (correctly) prohibited from playing full-contact rugby in women's teams, does this magically make every transwoman-denied-participation-in-women's-rugby "not a woman"?

Yes. It makes every single transgender identified male, regardless of whether they've ever even desired to participate in a female rugby league, not a woman.

Because males are not women.

You may refer to transgender identified males as "women" in a figurative sense. Figurative language is useful and colorful and can express a lot of concepts in ways that literal language makes very difficult.

But you, and many others who share your views, keep insisting that a figurative use of language makes it a literal truth. Which is false.

At the end of the day, no matter how figuratively one might view a transgender identified male as being a "woman"... when it comes right down to it, they are not literally women. Because women are females. And even the most ardent regurgitators of the mantra "Transwomen are Women" recognize that males are NOT females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal) quote about Cliff Richard: "I heard Cliff deny that he's gay, and that might well be true - but the man he lives with, sleeps with and has sex with definitely is gay".

I think the one about things looking and quacking like ducks is also apposite at this point.

Now now, lionking identifies as a liberal - who the **** are you to tell them that they are not?

When people tell you who they are, believe them. People are who they say they are.

Right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's not true either. We've done debunking of the violence against trans claims already. It doesn't come up much in this thread because the claim isn't made very often. Seriously, note the pattern with LJ. He will go on and on about experts and "valid lived identity", but he doesn't actually spend any real time rationalizing the actual accommodations being demanded, on the basis of threats to trans people or anything else.

Second, as mentioned by others, there are lots of men pushing back. I think you see less of it because they are more often on the conservative side of the aisle, but they aren't a rare breed at all.
Lastly, there is no point in denying that men are in fact more violent than women. That is precisely why trans women should not be granted the right to women's spaces. I don't think you want to undermine that argument.

This is true, there are many males who have pushed back against this from early on. The majority of those have had a very different reason than the reasons put forth by females. And even though it is many... that many is still a relatively small number, and they aren't vocal or active about it.

It's only been recently that a larger number of males have begun to actively take part in the debate and in protests on this topic. Whereas a not insignificant number of females have been actively involved for much longer.

The frustration comes in because a whole lot of those recently-active males have a tendency to look around in shock at what's going on. They had no idea it was happening. Then they tend to make statements like "where have all the feminists been? Shouldn't feminists have been fighting this already?"

And given that feminists HAVE been fighting this, and have been screaming about it as loudly as we can... it's rather frustrating to find males who have only now pulled their heads out of the sand castigating US for THEIR tendency to ignore females.

But trust me - we are appreciative of those of you who have been involved for a long time.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Neither do I, nor did I say otherwise.

Agreed, and I don't believe I have that right. And even if I had it, I wouldn't exercise it.

So I dunno where this came from:

Generalized pique and frustration on the topic, and an occasional tendency to perceive opposition in the slightest of disagreements.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If this is in relation to the 2019 case linked previously, my conclusion was quite firmly that the trans woman in question had no intention to do that.

My position is that the intent of the male in question is irrelevant. Whether they *intended* to frighten or intimidate females is of no account. They are unquestionably and easily identifiable as male. And any male with an ounce of sense would have expected that their presences as a male in a female-only space would cause concern and fear in females in that space.

I disagree that that happened. My conclusion is that Adrienne posted unhappiness about a woman being scared out and nothing more, as in "Oh, FML!". This was then manipulated by the transphobic twitterer who sought to create a narrative exactly as you have perceived it. Perhaps your preconceived notions about anyone who is trans are so set in stone that there really is not any other way you could ever see something like this.

And because I did not see it that way, you make a host of wrong interpretations and assumptions about what I think, and you convince yourself that we profoundly disagree on this topic (this topic being trans women are not women). This is in spite of several years of me posting in it that you have clearly lost all memory of.

You know, I *might* concede this one single case. Maybe. If you argue really, really hard and really, really convincingly.

But you've got an uphill battle because there are many cases of males who transgress female spaces with the claim of being transgender... who DO brag about it, who DO very clearly take pleasure in intimidating females in female spaces. This isn't a case of one rare event perhaps being misinterpreted. This is a case of you holding that this one event among a great many very similar events, is one that merits a different interpretation from all of the others.

Why do you believe that this specific individual merits special pleading with respect to their intent, when we have so very many other individuals who have made their intent and their schadenfreude abundantly clear?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I like to think I am a decent man, but I cannot debunk that myth, as I do not think it is a myth and I suspect transwomen are at risk in many men only spaces.

What, every single time one of them goes into the men's room he'll be beaten up and killed?

It's not being presented as something which occasionally happens, as a risk - it's being presented as something which is pretty much a certainty. And yet, actual reports of such occurrences are very hard to find. In contrast, reports of women and girls being assaulted by males - sometimes trans-identifying males - in female spaces, are distressingly easy to find.

And yet the discourse is all about how men, with their physical and social advantages, must be allowed into women's spaces to protect them from other men, and not at all about how much more risk will be heaped on women (already the ones carrying by far the greater risk) by making it easier and easier for men to get into their spaces.

I would say that it's not one extreme nor the other.

I think that the instances of males attacking transgender identified males in male-only spaces is rare. But that it does happen.

I will also suggest that there are many cases of males attacking transgender identified males... in spaces that are not male-only. And while there could be any number of possible reasons, I think that a not insignificant number of those instances involves either deceptive sexual advances, or unwanted sexual advances.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Cismen being more accepting of transwomen in their private spaces is not going to be the solution. The risk to transwomen in those situations is not the main reason they want access, it's because they want to be fully treated as women by society (leaving the bad actors out of it for now).

I disagree. They want society to treat them as FEMALE, despite the fact that they objectively are not female, and despite the fact that their desire increases the risk to females across the board.