Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

This is a case where drawing the distinction between Trans Rights ACTIVISTS and transgender identified people is actually quite important.

There are a great many transgender identified people who hold the same view as you, and who, in general, respect the right of females to have female-only spaces.

I remember Hans telling us about that before. A very strange and somewhat sad story. I have assumed from what he has said that he lives as a man, though doesn't really think of himself as either a man or a woman.

I don't understand why anyone could possibly criticise him for any of this. He was a child, and he didn't choose to be treated like that. In my view that was child abuse, and alarmingly it's something we're seeing more of, where parents (often mothers) decide a child is trans when they're still pre-school and pretty much force them into the role. There have even been some just like Hans where one parent insists the child is trans and the other insists not, and if the parents are separated then the kid is a boy with one parent and a girl with the other. Wasn't there a recent court case where this was happening? The child was a boy and one of twins I think.

I think it's all child abuse. These kids' brains are malleable and they're not even being given time to work out what's what before they're forced into playing the role of the opposite sex. I'd say Hans got off lightly because he seems to have come through with his body intact, at least. Which is more than can be said for Jackie Green or Jazz Jennings.

It sounds from what Hans said as if TRAs have been giving him a hard time because he didn't transgress the girls' privacy and go into their bathroom when he was dressed as a girl. I think that was a very principled thing for a little boy to understand and act on.

I also think that if TRAs have been giving him a hard time about that, it further underscores how important it is to them that women's and girls' privacy is to be invaded. So a little boy in a dress had sufficient sensitivity not to use the girls' bathroom, and they're castigating the adult decades later because they think he should have gone in there and made a point? These guys are lower than a snake's belly.

 

[Emily's Cat]

While homosexuality is certainly seen in nature, and is a normal part of the reproductive cycle in some species ("lesbian" behaviour is normal in cows in pro-oestrus, for example), there is nothing even remotely comparable to human transgenderism in any other species. As you say, sexual mimicry is something quite different. (It can be a defence strategy as well as a predatory one.)

No argument. I just keep coming back to the salmon, where some of the males never go out to sea, and they don't mature into the typical male salmon patterns - they look like female salmon. And by doing so, they can sneak in and deposit their sperm on the unsuspecting female's eggs. These are male salmon that would not be accepted by the females, they only get to pass on their genetic material by deceit.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Please.

I said men need to take some responsibility for their own brother-men, not sit it out and leave women to do all the work, as is happening at the moment. At the moment men are washing their hands of it all, assuming that because trans-identifying men want to go into women's spaces that's where they should go, and leaving it to women to deal with the result. When we protest we get #bekind and "but where else should they go - they have to go somewhere!"

The very idea that women can be accused of sitting this out is outrageous. The bloody country is stuffed with feminist groups and feminist meetings, women strategising, writing policy papers, lobbying government, everything. Meanwhile men look from afar at somebody else's problem.

There's an amusing thing that has happened several times recently, where a man notices that something isn't quite right, and comes on Twitter (or uses his newspaper column) to ask, where are all the feminists? Why aren't they saying anything about this. To by buried under a heap of angry women pointing out that they've been campaigning about this for the past five or ten years, have you only just noticed?

Another phenomenon which is quite common is that a minor celebrity says something about "why can't we all just #bekind, transwomen only want to live as their authentic selves." Again he (it's always he) will be buried in an avalanche of women linking to policy papers and case studies and legal analysis, almost all by women, and the blogs and campaign groups that have been explaining the problem in detail for years. All these women will be ignored. But in the middle of the avalanche there will be one or two men saying the same thing as the women. The minor celeb will only answer the men, might even offer to debate one of them, but behaves as if the women's posts don't exist.

Men need to get their own house in order. They need to start telling gender nonconforming men that they are welcome in men's spaces, that they don't need to invade women's privacy, and indeed that their behaviour is in many cases out of order. They need to make bad treatment of transwomen by men socially unacceptable, and something they will stand out against.

That's what we need. Not men saying that women are trying to sit it out and expecting men to solve it, when we simply remark that a bit of supportive action from the Y-chromosome brigade would make all the difference.

Sorry, I'm still reeling that you even said that.

Pretty much, yeah.

I'm getting awfully tired of a male just now noticing that something's amiss, because they heard it from another male... and then asking why females haven't said anything about it before.

All of my responses are not appropriate for the autocensor. I was late to this debate, and even so I've been screaming it from the rooftops for what... five years now? The ability of many males to just not even hear females at all is astonishing.

 

[The Atheist]

So you know, it would be helpful if men made some effort to undermine this glib, facile, false and deceptive excuse.

You're going about it in exactly the right way to alienate men, so your plan isn't working as you wish.

As you know, at the start of this thread, I was strongly against trans women getting all the rights of women, but your constant bitching and slandering people who genuinely feel they're the wrong gender has made me change opinion to the point where I'm happy to wash my hands of the whole thing.

The fact that you're aligning yourself with far right wankers like Jordan Petersen, Ron De Santis and evangelical christians is a particularly enjoyable irony for me.

Go for your life.

 

[Rolfe]

No argument. I just keep coming back to the salmon, where some of the males never go out to sea, and they don't mature into the typical male salmon patterns - they look like female salmon. And by doing so, they can sneak in and deposit their sperm on the unsuspecting female's eggs. These are male salmon that would not be accepted by the females, they only get to pass on their genetic material by deceit.

That anyone would look at that behaviour pattern, which clearly has reproductive advantages, and say the fish is "trans", says more about them than about the fish.

Same as the ones who want to trans Joan of Arc, or Queen Hapshetsup, or indeed Miranda Barry. Even people have motivations for pretending to be the opposite sex that have bugger-all to do with feeling as if they ought to be the opposite sex and everything to do with it being an advantageous thing for them to do at the time. Even Dustn Hofmann in Tootsie, or Robin Williams in Mrs Doubtfire, were playing men who had practical reasons for pretending to be women. They didn't imagine they had lady feelz.

But no, to the trans-obsessed, they're all trans. As is the female hyena, who goes to extreme lengths to look make externally. And someone's cat, which (as far as I could tell from the confused description of the medical problem) had a penectomy to address bladder stones, so she decided the cat was trans. (It's life-threatening when bladder stones get stuck in the penis, and if there is a bad episode that damages the organ, or if it keeps happening, penectomy is a recognised way of treating it.)

I have to say it. The world has gone mad.

 

[Ziggurat]

In terms of a lot of policy, sure. In this specific context though, I thought the reference was to how males treat other males in bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, etc. If males abuse males, then males need to sort some things out - evicting some males and tossing them at the females as being "non men" isn't a solution.

Sure. But transwomen were not evicted from male spaces. The problem cases are transwomen who want to invade women’s spaces because they get perverse satisfaction from doing so. No matter how safe and welcome they might be in male spaces, that won’t satisfy their urges. I don’t say this to excuse male violence, but it’s not the real issue here. And as far as I can tell, it’s exceedingly rare. Most cases of male violence against transwomen have nothing to do with bathrooms or changing rooms.

But I’ll be honest: I don’t want Jessica Yaniv in my daughter’s bathroom, but I don’t want him in my son’s bathroom either. He’s just a creep, and shouldn’t be around children of either sex.

 

[Rolfe]

You're going about it in exactly the right way to alienate men, so your plan isn't working as you wish.

As you know, at the start of this thread, I was strongly against trans women getting all the rights of women, but your constant bitching and slandering people who genuinely feel they're the wrong gender has made me change opinion to the point where I'm happy to wash my hands of the whole thing.

The fact that you're aligning yourself with far right wankers like Jordan Petersen, Ron De Santis and evangelical christians is a particularly enjoyable irony for me.

Go for your life.

"Genuinely feel they're the wrong gender."

And no doubt you call yourself a sceptic.

 

[Rolfe]

Sure. But transwomen were not evicted from male spaces. The problem cases are transwomen who want to invade women’s spaces because they get perverse satisfaction from doing so. No matter how safe and welcome they might be in male spaces, that won’t satisfy their urges. I don’t say this to excuse male violence, but it’s not the real issue here. And as far as I can tell, it’s exceedingly rare. Most cases of male violence against transwomen have nothing to do with bathrooms or changing rooms.

But I’ll be honest: I don’t want Jessica Yaniv in my daughter’s bathroom, but I don’t want him in my son’s bathroom either. He’s just a creep, and shouldn’t be around children of either sex.

The point I am making is that it is an all-pervasive narrative that the poor marginalised trans snowflakes can't be expected to go in the men's because they'll be assaulted. Not even might be, but will be. Sometimes we're even told that they'll be killed. It's complete bullcrap, but nobody on the men's side is pointing this out, or even trying to defend their sex against this complete libel.

I agree with you about Jonathan Yaniv, but let's face it, his fetish is all about little girls and tampons, and little girls are precisely who he should not be permitted within half a mile of. By court order, preferable.

 

[d4m10n]

A couple of points. It's late. I never at any point intended to say that men should solve this on their own. But at the moment it is self-evidently the women who are doing all the work. Certainly there are some men, but overall there are hordes of women fighting tooth and nail to retain their single-sex spaces, and precious little sign of any men saying, come on now, the place for people with male tackle is in the gents, be grown-up about it. It would help, you know.

Here in the U.S. the more patriarchal political party has been defending single sex leagues and spaces, while the party which enjoys much more female support is promoting self-i.d. and the like. Possibly things are very different on your side of the pond, but I am skeptical.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, very different. Trust me. Most of the women who are doing the work on this are left-leaning, and absolutely furious with the parties they used to support, used to belong to even, over their refusal to listen and absolute determination to throw women's rights down the toilet.

Even the Conservative politicians who are talking sense are mostly women. Male politicians are either open trans allies or in hiding.

 

[TomB]

The point I am making is that it is an all-pervasive narrative that the poor marginalised trans snowflakes can't be expected to go in the men's because they'll be assaulted. Not even might be, but will be. Sometimes we're even told that they'll be killed. It's complete bullcrap, but nobody on the men's side is pointing this out, or even trying to defend their sex against this complete libel. I agree with you about Jonathan Yaniv, but let's face it, his fetish is all about little girls and tampons, and little girls are precisely who he should not be permitted within half a mile of. By court order, preferable.

You find that surprising? Here's what it would look like if men defended themselves against stereotypes, like say...prison violence:

And, because we had previously shown that nearly one million incidents of sexual victimization happen in our nation’s prisons and jails each year, we knew that no analysis of sexual victimization in the U.S. would be complete without a look at sexual abuse happening behind bars. We found that, contrary to assumptions, the biggest threat to women serving time does not come from male corrections staff. Instead, female victims are more than three times as likely to experience sexual abuse by other women inmates than by male staff. Also surprisingly, women inmates are more likely to be abused by other inmates than are male inmates, disrupting the long held view that sexual violence in prison is mainly about men assaulting men. In juvenile corrections facilities, female staff are also a much more significant threat than male staff; more than nine in ten juveniles who reported staff sexual victimization were abused by a woman.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
Post stuff like that and the slurs start coming: MRA, Incel, etc.

Now, you seem to be pushing the idea that men are supporting trans women into female spaces. yet, at least in the US, male opinions on the subject seem to be more strongly opposed than female opinions.

Men are more likely than women to believe that allowing transgender women into spaces reserved for women, such as restrooms or changing rooms, poses a risk of harm. Men (46%) are 11 percentage points more likely than women (35%) to say that allowing transgender women in these spaces presents a genuine risk of harm to women. Two in five women (39%) don’t agree.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/2021/09/23/americans-transgender-survey

 

[The Atheist]

Most of the women who are doing the work on this are left-leaning...

"Work"

The political leaning is the ironically humourous part.

 

[lionking]

You're going about it in exactly the right way to alienate men, so your plan isn't working as you wish.

As you know, at the start of this thread, I was strongly against trans women getting all the rights of women, but your constant bitching and slandering people who genuinely feel they're the wrong gender has made me change opinion to the point where I'm happy to wash my hands of the whole thing.

The fact that you're aligning yourself with far right wankers like Jordan Petersen, Ron De Santis and evangelical christians is a particularly enjoyable irony for me.

Go for your life.

Your opinions must be so incredibly sincere and strongly based if you can change them over the views of a single, anonymous internet poster.

 

[Brainster]

So people who are part of your group are causing problems for the other group. So it's the group who are having the problems you think has to do all the labour, you don't think maybe the group whose members are causing the problems might maybe lend a bit of a hand?

Public policy? We've got lobby groups and policy documents and impact assessments and case studies and legal analysis coming out of our ears. I'm not sure what more we can do. The fact is that this is not a level playing field. Men get listened to when women don't. But hey, don't let that worry you, it's not you who's being put in danger by physically more powerful predators let loose in your safe spaces. I appreciate you take more interest than many men, but even you are prepared to sit back and let women do all the heavy lifting.

We need men to do their bit, to speak out, to reinforce our voices, and to add their own voices to the debate in accepting responsibility for the problem men, rather than saying "well, it's not us they're causing problems for." But even you think that's a bit much to ask apparently.

Almost all of the men who agree with your position on transwomen around here happen to be conservatives. We are speaking out about it, but do you think liberal men and women are going to be impressed with our arguments? The fact is that most liberal (in the modern American sense of the term) men on the forum support trans-activism reflexively, as you can see when they occasionally wander in here.

 

[lionking]

Almost all of the men who agree with your position on transwomen around here happen to be conservatives. We are speaking out about it, but do you think liberal men and women are going to be impressed with our arguments? The fact is that most liberal (in the modern American sense of the term) men on the forum support trans-activism reflexively, as you can see when they occasionally wander in here.

For the record I am not and never have been conservative and I will lay a large bet that most regular posters are the same. Yes I know of a few exceptions.

 

[Samson]

Sexual mimicry in nature is an act of deception and predation.

Concise.

 

[LondonJohn]

It seems it's a special case where trans women are not women. If they were women, they'd compete in elite women's sport (if they were good enough).

Another special case, per Nicola Sturgeon, is when trans women have raped women; they're not women then either. If they were women, they'd be incarcerated in female prisons.

So in summary, trans women aren't women. They can do plenty of the things women do. They should not be allowed to do anything a woman can do as a matter of policy. And this is according to LondonJohn and Nicola Sturgeon.

(Does that wrap up this thread series? Only took six years abouts)

Even by the standards of the usual anti-transgender-identity bilge in this nasty little thread, this is disconcertingly poor thinking.

I'll illustrate just how wrong/ignorant you are with a counter-example: given that transwomen are (correctly) prohibited from playing full-contact rugby in women's teams, does this magically make every transwoman-denied-participation-in-women's-rugby "not a woman"?

Because that's what your twisted "logic" would mandate.

Not allowing certain violent transwomen into women's prisons a) is justifiable and correct, b) has been happening for years now on a case-by-case risk assessment basis, and c) in no way means or implies that any transwoman denied a transfer to the women's prison estate somehow "isn't a woman".

 

[LondonJohn]

For the record I am not and never have been conservative and I will lay a large bet that most regular posters are the same. Yes I know of a few exceptions.

Reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal) quote about Cliff Richard: "I heard Cliff deny that he's gay, and that might well be true - but the man he lives with, sleeps with and has sex with definitely is gay".

I think the one about things looking and quacking like ducks is also apposite at this point.

 

[Matthew Best]

I think the one about things looking and quacking like ducks is also apposite at this point.

So if someone looks and talks and acts like a misogynist, we can draw conclusions from that?

 

[Ziggurat]

The point I am making is that it is an all-pervasive narrative that the poor marginalised trans snowflakes can't be expected to go in the men's because they'll be assaulted. Not even might be, but will be. Sometimes we're even told that they'll be killed. It's complete bullcrap, but nobody on the men's side is pointing this out, or even trying to defend their sex against this complete libel.

That's not true either. We've done debunking of the violence against trans claims already. It doesn't come up much in this thread because the claim isn't made very often. Seriously, note the pattern with LJ. He will go on and on about experts and "valid lived identity", but he doesn't actually spend any real time rationalizing the actual accommodations being demanded, on the basis of threats to trans people or anything else.

Second, as mentioned by others, there are lots of men pushing back. I think you see less of it because they are more often on the conservative side of the aisle, but they aren't a rare breed at all.

Lastly, there is no point in denying that men are in fact more violent than women. That is precisely why trans women should not be granted the right to women's spaces. I don't think you want to undermine that argument.