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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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Activists frequently don't actually help the people they agitate on behalf of.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/11926163a6cabfb01.jpg[/qimg]

I'm well aware of that. The problem has got worse since human rights organisations have acquired social prestige (as opposed to the times when activists were the ones getting cancelled rather than doing the cancelling). My theory is that one reason the orgs are corrupted is that they now attract narcissists who relish the opportunity to swagger about morally grandstanding and inflicting 'consequences' on other people while enhancing their own status, at no risk to themselves.

The more cynical part of me thinks that the reason orgs like Stonewall have taken such an insane position (apart from the fact that there appears to be massive funding behind it) is that they know it is impossible to ultimately fully achieve their goals in a democratic, pluralistic society. They almost did themselves out of a job last time by just reasonably seeking equal rights and protection from discrimination for gay people and largely achieving it. They probably don't want to make the same mistake again.

The even more cynical part of me thinks that many activists want to convince the more vulnerable trans people that agreement with their project to replace sex with gender identity is essential to their existence, and that everyone who disagrees wants to harm or eliminate them. That is standard cult technique (induce paranoia, prevent people from hearing alternative views, promise to protect them from enemies in return for unconditional allegiance). They have a vested interest in keeping trans people in a state of perpetual distress because it increases their own power (and often wealth).
 
For the record I am not and never have been conservative and I will lay a large bet that most regular posters are the same. Yes I know of a few exceptions.

Most does not mean all, of course. But think about it in terms of %s. What percentage of conservative male posters in the forum do you think oppose Lia Thomas being treated as a woman by the NCAA, versus liberal male posters? I'm guessing the vast majority of the former and a minimal percentage (not zero, but still low) of the latter. Now it may be that the numbers change a bit for (say) those who oppose transwomen being incarcerated in women's prisons (because the stakes are higher), but it's still going to be mainly the conservatives who oppose.
 
Most does not mean all, of course. But think about it in terms of %s. What percentage of conservative male posters in the forum do you think oppose Lia Thomas being treated as a woman by the NCAA, versus liberal male posters? I'm guessing the vast majority of the former and a minimal percentage (not zero, but still low) of the latter. Now it may be that the numbers change a bit for (say) those who oppose transwomen being incarcerated in women's prisons (because the stakes are higher), but it's still going to be mainly the conservatives who oppose.
These issues make traditionally liberal men appear conservative. However they have not become conservative, the truly liberal male is one who navigates a strong adherence to the principles of free speech. This is tricky, but certainly includes stating that biological men should never compete with women, except in fields like equestrian where the strength is in the horse.
 
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That thing that will never happen happened again.

Mother reports Nanaimo Aquatic Centre change room incident to police

Janayh Wright was about to change in the women’s change rooms Friday when she says she noticed a person wearing a wig and face mask without a bag, towel or swimsuit. Wright says she then saw the person starting to look around in the showers then get into a stall close to her nine-year-old daughter’s.

“I could see their feet moving, so you could see the bottom of the stall, then I saw the wig peer down and they were trying to peek underneath the stall,” said Wright. “When the individual came out of the room still fully clothed I then approached them. They told me it was in their human rights to be in the changeroom and that they weren’t going to leave. There were a few words exchanged and I ushered them out the door.”

When she told a facility manager what occurred, Wright says she was told it was unacceptable behaviour but the person was within their human rights to be there. Wright says she was disappointed with how staff handled her complaint. The city says people are given access to washrooms and change rooms that correspond to their gender identity, according to the Human Rights Code and Human Rights Act.


This was in (checks notes) gosh, Canada again.

This sort of thing seems to be happening every week or two at least. No sooner have we forgotten about one when another one hits the headlines. If transwomen being assaulted in male single-sex spaces was a moderately common occurrence I'd expect to encounter at least some examples from time to time. Maybe someone would be keeping a compilation, for evidence - as I believe some people are keeping a compilation of these incidents.

Another one, near home. Yesterday a little girl was reported missing in the same LA region as me. Not that close, but close enough that I retweeted the missing person information to my followers. Today the little girl has been found, and a local man who has been a cross-dresser since he was a teenager and has recently been going out almost exclusively in his female persona is in custody. The little girl is reported to be unharmed but seems to have been held captive.

"Crossdressing" butcher arrested in case of missing child

This link is to REDUXX because they have most detail. The BBC report is relatively sparse, but interestingly they referred to Andrew Miller/Amy George as "he" throughout, despite presumably having the same information as everyone else has about this person being trans. This is a departure from their usual policy of referring even to rapists as "she", even to offenders such as Andrew Burns, who has never been seen looking even remotely feminine. I wonder if they are beginning to wake up and smell the coffee on this.
 
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That may not have been your point. But other than pedantry (and I confess I'm not above that myself on occasion), how these numbers affect such issues is the only reason any of these statistics really matter here. If they don't inform us of the consequences of different policy options, then it's really just a curiosity, it's not actually useful for making decisions.

the point is that the statement it was in response to is also not useful.
 
What does 'property victimization' mean? If it's referring to standard property crimes like burglary, it's unlikely that the victims are being targeted for being transgender. That would be a fairly clear indication of confounds with other factors such as socio-economic status and living in unsafe areas.

The reason that these issues are important, is that if a large part of victimization results from confounds with other factors such as poverty, living in unsafe environments etc, then a remedy would be to tackle discrimination in employment and housing and improve access to education and training. However, activists (some of whom are not trans) spend little time on this compared to efforts to enforce ideological conformity to their philosophical views on gender theory (which is likely to lead to risk of backlash and make things worse). Likewise if all mental health problems are assumed for ideological reasons to stem from 'minority stress' but this is not in fact true, then evidence-based rather than ideological approaches to tackling mental health problems are the solution.

Well, yes.

For whatever reason, it may be that transgender people have a higher rate of poverty, which could result in a greater rate of both property and violent crime. Which leads to questions of economic discrimination as you say.

But we actually need a deeper statistical dive to find out, not only if poverty is correlated, but also the types of crimes. Vandalism, for example, is a property crime that could very well have to do with targeting trans people.

But you can't say either of those without doing actual statistical breakdowns.
 
I'm seeing reports of trans-identified men convicted of or charged with or arrested in connection with or accused of criminal offences on an extraordinarily frequent basis. I was composing the post about the voyeur Peeping Tom in Canada when I discovered that it was a transwoman who has been arrested in connection with the little girl who went missing in Gala yesterday.

This is on top of all the hoo-hah about Adam Graham and "Katie" Dolatowski and Andrew Burns and the women's prison thing, which is so last-week now. Scotland is a small country, and the number of transwomen criminals we have clocked up is getting impressive (obviously I'm not counting the Canadian one, but Graham raped two women, Burns stalked a 13-year-old girl and Dolatowski assaulted two girls in a ladies lavatory, attempting to rape one). All the offences seem to be sexual, against girls or women. No straightforward robbery or even drug dealing that I've noticed.

The statistical figures for sexual offences disaggregated by sex and gender identity are startling. These figures relate to England and Wales. When one correlates statistics on sex offenders with the recent census where people were allowed/encouraged to record a transgender identity if they had one, it is possible to see how many men there are in the population, how many women, and how many transwomen. It is also possible to find out how many of each group have been convicted of sexual offences.

11,660 men serving time for sex offences out of 29.5m = 1 in 2530 men

103 women serving the same time out of 30.4 million = 1 in 295,000 women

92 transwomen serving the same time out of 48,000 = 1 in 522 transwomen

There are nearly as many transwomen in prison for sexual offences as there are women in prison for such offences in raw numbers. Despite the fact that the baseline population of women is 30,400,000 compared to only 48,000 transwomen.

The Rorschach Test

Perhaps this puts into perspective why women do not want this group of people to be given unfettered legal access to all our single sex spaces. It's not only about the probability of straightforward fraud by any old creep, pervert and weirdo simply claiming to be trans in order to walk in unimpeded, it's also about the high proportion of creeps, perverts and weirdos - not to mention rapists - in the trans "community" itself.
 
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Most does not mean all, of course. But think about it in terms of %s. What percentage of conservative male posters in the forum do you think oppose Lia Thomas being treated as a woman by the NCAA, versus liberal male posters? I'm guessing the vast majority of the former and a minimal percentage (not zero, but still low) of the latter. Now it may be that the numbers change a bit for (say) those who oppose transwomen being incarcerated in women's prisons (because the stakes are higher), but it's still going to be mainly the conservatives who oppose.

Well I oppose Lia Thomas and despite LJ’s ignorant comments about me, I’m not conservative in any way at all.
 
I'm not "claiming" that trans is "one of the safest demographics", I am referencing actual murder statistics in this country and pointing out that as regards being the victims of murder, being trans is safer than either being a woman or a man.

Fact check: how many trans people are murdered in the UK?

It is also a fact that more transwomen have been convicted of murder than have been the victims of murder. That's quite startling also, although the numbers are small in both cases.
Do you have a source for this? It's not mentioned in your link.

There aren't really good statistics on gender demographics of murder victims (as pointed out repeatedly in your link). But...

In the US, there were 52 trans people murdered in 2021. (up from 28 in 2020.)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/944726/murders-transgender-gender-diverse-people-us/

I have been unable to find any statistics on the number of trans people convicted of murder in the U.S. I did find a list of around 36 trans murderers. The list includes Richard Speck, so it obviously goes back a long way and states that it is incomplete:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Crimes_Committed_by_Transgender_People

You may consider it pedantic, but I work with data. When statistical claims, such as rates are mentioned, I like to see something to back them up.

It appears to me that data has not been collected and organized in such a manner that it can be analyzed to either support or debunk some of these claims.
 
Do you have a source for this? It's not mentioned in your link.


Yes, I do. I don't just pull things like that out of my backside. However, anything I google is swamped with hyperbolic claims about "people murdered for being trans" which is a whole other rabbit-hole of claims that can't be substantiated, so it might take me a while to find it.
 
Well I oppose Lia Thomas and despite LJ’s ignorant comments about me, I’m not conservative in any way at all.

Do you think your opposition to Lia Thomas is common among those whom you agree with politically, here or in the real world?

Let me rehash what I've been trying to say. Rolfe stated that men have to do more. I pointed out that most (not you) of the men on her side on this issue(on the forum and IRL) are conservatives, and that the men who need convincing are (mostly) liberal men. Liberal men are skilled at deflecting any arguments raised by conservatives, and thus are unlikely to be convinced by (most of) the men on Rolfe's side.

Let me add here the caveat that I am talking about conservative and liberal as those terms are currently understood in the USA, and not classical liberalism, but I suspect on this issue there isn't much difference between US conservatives and UK Tories or between US liberals and UK Labour supporters.
 
This has been written about about some length. There is a common interest in this subject with, on the one hand, politically conservative figures, and on the other hand feminist women with left-wing backgrounds. I have read some analysis comparing the positions taken by these two groups and hypothesising that they are coming from somewhat different directions and philosopical positions, but have arrived at much the same place. It's certainly not common cause, there are huge spats about it. Should we be co-operating with right-wing Americans we despise? Should we be publishing in right-wing American publications, considering that left-wing publications won't publish anything gender-critical?

Not my field. Hitler was a vegetarian who was fond of animals. Should we all become carnivores and ill-treat animals to show we aren't like Hitler? (And yes, I do know what Godwin's Law is. Consider the thread Godwinned.)
 
This has been written about about some length. There is a common interest in this subject with, on the one hand, politically conservative figures, and on the other hand feminist women with left-wing backgrounds. I have read some analysis comparing the positions taken by these two groups and hypothesising that they are coming from somewhat different directions and philosopical positions, but have arrived at much the same place. It's certainly not common cause, there are huge spats about it. Should we be co-operating with right-wing Americans we despise? Should we be publishing in right-wing American publications, considering that left-wing publications won't publish anything gender-critical?

Not my field. Hitler was a vegetarian who was fond of animals. Should we all become carnivores and ill-treat animals to show we aren't like Hitler? (And yes, I do know what Godwin's Law is. Consider the thread Godwinned.)
I was in my car one day and had left my radio on a local station that broadcast a sports game I was interested in. It also broadcast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. At the time rush Limbaugh was on.

I don't know what exactly it was, but Rush said something I actually agreed with. I was like "Right!" Then he explained his reasoning, and I was like "No!"

You can sometimes get to the same place from multiple directions. Which is why I put little stock in using a shared position with an objectional group as an argument.

And I'm pretty sure this thread has been Godwinned many times before. If not, it should have been. It's not really a thread until it's been Godwinned, now, is it?
 
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I'm not "claiming" that trans is "one of the safest demographics", I am referencing actual murder statistics in this country and pointing out that as regards being the victims of murder, being trans is safer than either being a woman or a man.

Fact check: how many trans people are murdered in the UK?

It is also a fact that more transwomen have been convicted of murder than have been the victims of murder. That's quite startling also, although the numbers are small in both cases.
Did you read your link or just skim it? It makes an important point that you missed.
 
Do you think your opposition to Lia Thomas is common among those whom you agree with politically, here or in the real world?

Let me rehash what I've been trying to say. Rolfe stated that men have to do more. I pointed out that most (not you) of the men on her side on this issue(on the forum and IRL) are conservatives, and that the men who need convincing are (mostly) liberal men. Liberal men are skilled at deflecting any arguments raised by conservatives, and thus are unlikely to be convinced by (most of) the men on Rolfe's side.

Let me add here the caveat that I am talking about conservative and liberal as those terms are currently understood in the USA, and not classical liberalism, but I suspect on this issue there isn't much difference between US conservatives and UK Tories or between US liberals and UK Labour supporters.

I’m Australian and we treat sports seriously. Any example of blatant unfairness is not treated kindly right across the political spectrum.
 
The Daily Telegraph is just trolling Nicola Sturgeon now. https://archive.is/YOMRC

For context, it has been blanket policy among police and media outlets to refer to trans-identifying men as "she" for some time now - even when this makes copy ridiculously confusing and even when the man is a convicted rapist or the most dangerous person in police custody. Now, this evening, the police are referring to the man who abducted Kaitlyn Easson as "a man", despite the fact that everyone in the town knows he transitioned eight years ago and has been living as "Amy" all that time.

The BBC web site posted a skeleton article eight hours ago, which has never been updated or had new information added as that has come in. This is almost unheard-of - usually these articles have something added, even if it's only "neighbours said". The BBC are right at the forefront of calling a rapist "woman convicted of..." and I have a feeling they're having conniptions wondering what to do about this. The news of the missing girl has been all over the media for 24 hours, just as the whole thing about trans rapists in women's prisons was beginning to go off the news agenda, and this is going to set it all off again once it has to be revealed that the person charged in connection with Kaitlyn's disappearance is another transwoman.

For the Torygraph it's a good opportunity to declare that the police are sticking it to Nicola!
 
Well, pigeons, meet cat. Image of the front page of the Daily Record, the go-to tabloid of the hoi polloi, reads, in huge letters, "'TRANS' BUTCHER ARRESTED". ("Butcher" is merely what it says - the man owned a butcher's shop, which apparently had just closed. Customers complaining of poor service rudeness, and not being all that taken with being served by a man in makeup and a dress.)

Under that we have "Man held over disappearance of girl, 11, in Borders town" and "Cops say Andrew Miller also identified as woman Amy George." Full story pages 5 and 6, yadda yadda.

This is going to go down like a cup of cold sick with a population already revolted by the Adam Graham thing, and then finding out about Andrew Burns. People have been hanging on for news of a vanished 11-year-old, thinking about another Holly and Jessica, or Sarah Payne, or for locals with longer memories Susan Maxwell and Caroline Hogg. And now, although thankfully this is not a murder case, it's another transwoman in the frame.
 
Your midnight check-in on the petition reports 79,318 signatures, so 152 new signatures today. Down again.

The new magic number is 287.2.
 
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