Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[lionking]

Honest question: do you "woke" clowns even realize how ridiculous you are when trying to tell an actual trans (at one point) how he/she/it should feel and think about trans issues?

Because, for better or worse, I actually was a trans-girl at one point. (Or arguably "transed.)

You weren't.

Do you even have ANY idea of what the actual issues an actual trans faces? Like, what it's like to actually go to the high school principal and demand to play basketball with the girls instead of football with the boys? Or to, honest to god, go demand to get a mammogram like the rest of the girls? (Yeah, so I may have gone overboard a bit)

No, I don't think you do. But somehow you feel secure in patting yourselves on the back for being so 'progressive' bleating to me about it.

Yah, in spite of that, some of you "woke" clowns feel entitled to tell me how I should feel about it, and what a reactionary I am if I don't let you tell me what I should think.

That's not being an ally. That's the 18'th century "mission to civilize" mind set, where you're the superior race, and I'm the one who should be 'civilized' by you superior folks. It's that much being a stupid wanker, feeding your ego at the expense of those you're supposedly 'protecting' from themselves.

No, you're not 'progressive', or anything else you tell yourselves to prevent realizing how much of a waste of oxygen loser you are. You're the epitome of an entitled wanker exercising their entitlement.

It looks like you haven’t read this thread. Despite LJs rants, nobody here is denying the rights of trans people to equality when it comes to things like employment and housing. Nobody has expressed any objection to people dressing and living the way they prefer and to have access to medical treatment to assist transition.

The problem is that so many TRAs demand access to women’s private places, eligibility to women’s scholarships, access to women’s prisons and shelters. They demand to play women’s sports, which is unfair and sometimes dangerous to women. Most transwomen making these demands have penises and some have raped women in their so-called safe places. What I and others object to is the attack on women’s rights by TRAs.

But thanks for your depiction of posters and your drive-by.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

 

[TomB]

I'd venture to guess that whatever term had been invented, it would've become an insult eventually.

As to why it was created:

I do find the renewed interest over the last few years in writing of mine from a decade ago disconcerting. The Terf acronym has long since left that particular discussion (and me) behind, and been weaponised at times by both those who advocate trans-inclusion in feminist/female spaces, and those who push for trans-exclusion from female-only spaces. I have no control over how others use a word (as it has now become) that came about simply to save typing a longer phrase out over and over again - a shorthand to describe one cohort of feminists who self-identify as radical and are unwilling to recognise trans women as sisters, unlike those of us who do.

And an alternative by the same author:

I also mentioned another term which didn’t catch on, perhaps at least partly because it was less ambiguous about who exactly was being described:

After a bit more reading, I think the trans-exclusionary set should better be described as TES, with the S standing for separatists. A lot of the positions that are presented seem far too essentialist to be adequately described as feminist, let alone radical feminist.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/im-credited-with-having-coined-the-acronym-terf-heres-how-it-happened?CMP=soc_568

She was basically trying to write about two subgroups of radical feminists, delineated on views on trans women. Yes, she is/was pro-trans. But I think she was trying to be, if not neutral, descriptive as opposed to denigrating.

But all of this is beside the point. Both descriptive terms have been weaponized beyond their literal meaning. (I've read claims that "TRA" is meant to resemble "MRA" and is used in a similar fashion. )

An acronym for Trans Rights Activist. As distinguished from transgendered people in general, TRA is usually reserved as a pejorative for those who are perceived as the most demanding or politically extreme among trans folk.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tra&page=2

 

[theprestige]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

You definitely haven't been reading this thread, if that's your takeaway.

 

[lionking]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

It would be really great if you can show where these views have been expressed in this thread about any transwomen who is respectful of women. There are plenty of examples of hatred of women by transwomen linked in this thread, even very recently, including calls to punch or even kill “TERFS”. Care to comment about these examples?

 

[Elaedith]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

I can think of only one person posting here who would probably say you were wrong, and he wouldn't so much say 'wrong' as that you weren't really trans if you didn't see yourself as an actual girl. We have cited articles by trans people before (e.g. Debbie Hayton) who are critical of gender identity theory and don't think they have actually changed sex or that sexes should be redefined as identities.

Actually I know quite a few trans people now with similar views to yours.

 

[TomB]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

Your position sounds pretty similar to Blair White and Rose of Dawn.
It's very hard to tell what positions are held by actual members of the trans community. I imagine there is quite a variation.

The views that get the most press or social media attention are the most extreme ones. Similarly, people who misbehave or cause controversy also get headlines. I don't think pointing to Jessica Yaniv or Danielle Muscata as representative of the trans community is accurate.

Both sides in this debate seem to think they know all about the psychology and motivations of trans people, and I think both sides (as represented here) are likely wrong.

I, for one, am interested in your perspective. I'd also like to hear the perspective of people who are currently trans. What they actually want and think is reasonable and what portions of that come into conflict with what women want where rights butt up against each other.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, maybe not the most extreme examples in this particular thread, but at least on Twitter I'm basically told just that: I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I didn't want to go into the girls' bathroom.

In fact, not just on Twitteer. A few articles straight up tell me I'm the worst human ever (which you'd think would be quite a difficult achievement given Caligula and Commodus and whatnot) if I even have any other issues as a higher priority than that I should have gotten into the girls' bathroom and lockers.

 

[lionking]

Well, maybe not the most extreme examples in this particular thread, but at least on Twitter I'm basically told just that: I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I didn't want to go into the girls' bathroom.

In fact, not just on Twitteer. A few articles straight up tell me I'm the worst human ever (which you'd think would be quite a difficult achievement given Caligula and Commodus and whatnot) if I even have any other issues as a higher priority than that I should have gotten into the girls' bathroom and lockers.

Well thank you, but it would help if you withdrew comments like “do you "woke" clowns even realize how ridiculous you are”. They are unworthy of you.

 

[HansMustermann]

Ok, consider them withdrawn if that makes you feel any better.

 

[theprestige]

Well, maybe not the most extreme examples in this particular thread, but at least on Twitter I'm basically told just that: I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I didn't want to go into the girls' bathroom.

In fact, not just on Twitteer. A few articles straight up tell me I'm the worst human ever (which you'd think would be quite a difficult achievement given Caligula and Commodus and whatnot) if I even have any other issues as a higher priority than that I should have gotten into the girls' bathroom and lockers.

Now I'm super confused. Are you biologically male? Or biologically female?

 

[Elaedith]

Your position sounds pretty similar to Blair White and Rose of Dawn.
It's very hard to tell what positions are held by actual members of the trans community. I imagine there is quite a variation.

The views that get the most press or social media attention are the most extreme ones. Similarly, people who misbehave or cause controversy also get headlines. I don't think pointing to Jessica Yaniv or Danielle Muscata as representative of the trans community is accurate.

Both sides in this debate seem to think they know all about the psychology and motivations of trans people, and I think both sides (as represented here) are likely wrong.

I, for one, am interested in your perspective. I'd also like to hear the perspective of people who are currently trans. What they actually want and think is reasonable and what portions of that come into conflict with what women want where rights butt up against each other.

I think different trans people have very different motivations for transitioning (or identifying as another gender). It's a particular strand of dominant activists who push a specific ideological perspective on being transgender that suits their purposes and won't tolerate any dissent, including from other trans people.

'Dr María Inés de la Cruz' on twitter is an interesting example of the 'wrong type of trans' person being marginalized by activists.

 

[HansMustermann]

Now I'm super confused. Are you biologically male? Or biologically female?

I think I posted (bits of pieces of) this before. For years, even.

Mom wanted a son, grandma wanted a granddaughter. Both got their wish. I was biologically male, but Mom just passed me off to grandma to raise, which had me BE a girl until I was about 14 years old, at which point it was kinda hard to pass me off for a girl.

I was raised to basically change gender at the drop of a coin. Mom left for work, I was a girl. I had a girl name. I had a beheaded doll like Wednesday Addams. I had a pink dress with the buttons on the 'girl' side. I played with other girls outside. And allegedly I at least once hold off peeing until I was just about to explode because in my preschool little mind I thought someone might notice I don't pee like a girl. Then mom came home and I suddenly was a boy.

I didn't really think much about it at the moment. When I was with grandma, she said I was a girl, so I was a girl. When I was with mom, she said I was a boy, so I was a boy. If you can't trust your mom and grandma, who can you trust, right?

I kinda got... confused for a while after that. I just... was used to being a girl. I had been a girl FAR more than I had been a boy, and at that most of my social interactions had been as a girl. (Plus the occasional faux pas like introducing myself by my girl name in first grade.)

To be honest, I'm an old guy and I STILL find it more natural to think of myself as... well... there's a reason for the gender on my forum pic

I don't think I ever thought of it as "identifying" as a girl, because to my mind when you identify X as Y, you're saying X=Y. I was pretty sure I had differences from an actual girl.

Really, I only ever "identified" as "me."

 

[Rolfe]

Your (slightly later than) midnight check-in on the petition reports 78,609 signatures, so 237 new signatures today. A bit quieter again.

The new magic number is 285.2.

 

[theprestige]

I think I posted (bits of pieces of) this before. For years, even.

Mom wanted a son, grandma wanted a granddaughter. Both got their wish. I was biologically male, but Mom just passed me off to grandma to raise, which had me BE a girl until I was about 14 years old, at which point it was kinda hard to pass me off for a girl.

I was raised to basically change gender at the drop of a coin. Mom left for work, I was a girl. I had a girl name. I had a beheaded doll like Wednesday Addams. I had a pink dress with the buttons on the 'girl' side. I played with other girls outside. And allegedly I at least once hold off peeing until I was just about to explode because in my preschool little mind I thought someone might notice I don't pee like a girl. Then mom came home and I suddenly was a boy.

I didn't really think much about it at the moment. When I was with grandma, she said I was a girl, so I was a girl. When I was with mom, she said I was a boy, so I was a boy. If you can't trust your mom and grandma, who can you trust, right?

I kinda got... confused for a while after that. I just... was used to being a girl. I had been a girl FAR more than I had been a boy, and at that most of my social interactions had been as a girl. (Plus the occasional faux pas like introducing myself by my girl name in first grade.)

To be honest, I'm an old guy and I STILL find it more natural to think of myself as... well... there's a reason for the gender on my forum pic

I don't think I ever thought of it as "identifying" as a girl, because to my mind when you identify X as Y, you're saying X=Y. I was pretty sure I had differences from an actual girl.

Really, I only ever "identified" as "me."

I didn't ask your gender, or what you identify as.

I asked what your biological sex is.

Are you biologically male? It's a simple question with an unequivocal yes or no answer.

 

[HansMustermann]

As the second paragraph says, "I was biologically male". I trust that you can deduce that I still am. I mean, even with alchemy and the law of equivalent exchange, that doesn't change

 

[d4m10n]

Hans - Thanks for sharing all that at #2933.

It's always interesting to hear from people with very different experiences and perspectives.

ETA: This tweet raises an interesting point about mind/body dualism
https://twitter.com/SecularOutpost/status/1621902630745415680

I don't think Ms Buttons is being entirely fair, but the metaphysical status of gender identity is a bit mysterious. Having never felt any sense of gender or sexual incongruence, my perspective is a bit like a 4th grader's take on sexual attraction.

 

[Stout]

Well, thing is, you actually describe my position. I never actually went to the girls' bathroom or other private spaces, nor did I ever support that kind of thing. I suppose I did play a sport with the girls (basketball), but never in any competitive setting, and I always made a point to just pass the ball and never use my otherwise testosterone-based advantages at all. (Seriously, they were surprised when I showed what I could actually do at one point after school.) But these days I'm told I'm some kind of alt-right short-stache goose-stepping card-carrying NSDAP member if I maintain the exact same views: stay out of the girls' toilet, don't push them out of sports, don't EVER end up in a physical fight against an actual girl, and no, you're not an actual girl in any meaningful sense, etc.

But somehow some cis guys feel entitled to tell me that they should tell me I'm wrong...

Cheers, thanks for that. I've always wonder whether trans acting like you did actually existed. I assumed they did but having next to zero IRL experience with trans people I didn't know for sure. I had my hair cut by a ladyboy in Thailand once and when I lived right in the middle of a massive gay neighborhood (Davie Village, Vancouver) for 6 years, the trans community wasn't visible at all. Rumor has it that this one super gay neighbor I had, the one his roomates described as way "way too faggy" left town and was living as a woman in Toronto.

Oh and once an obviously trans street prostitute waved to me as I was sitting on my motorcycle at a stoplight. That's really about it. The trans issue, for me at least, exists solely on my computer screen

 

[d4m10n]

I'd be interested in a legal take on this if we've got any British lawyers here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/62794267.amp

p.s. Ireland looks unstoppable this year.
[emoji1132] [emoji464]


Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Darat]

I'd be interested in a legal take on this if we've got any British lawyers here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/62794267.amp

...snip...

It's as the article states, there are exceptions allowed to maintain segregation by sex in sports to allow for "fair and safe competition"

We'd have to see their actual letter but I suspect they will be arguing that a blanket ban is a disproportionate (is that the right word?) action to achieve "fair and safe competition" rather than for example setting the level of testosterone in the blood as the test.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission have made it clear that they do believe blanket bans are an appropriate measure:

...snip....
https://equalityhumanrights.com/en/...sition-trans-people’s-participation-athletics

...our position that Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) holders can be lawfully excluded under the ‘sporting exemption’ in the Equality Act for reasons of fair and safe competition...

This is also Parliament's view of the issue: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/14/5

...snip....

This section allows separate sporting competitions to continue to be organised for men and women where physical strength, stamina or physique are major factors in determining success or failure, and in which one sex is generally at a disadvantage in comparison with the other. It also makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in such competitions if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition, but not otherwise.
...snip..

However, these issues are not a matter of settled law, which means we do need cases such as this one to proceed in the courts to set legal precedents. (Which is why a change to the Equality act to make it clear parliament's intent that sex = "sex at time of birth regardless of GRC" may be worthwhile we would still need to see actual cases being decided on in the courts.)