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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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Honestly the only real point of contention I have right now is with the idea that self-ID should be the basis for transcending sex segregation. I don't think it should be. If you agree with me on that point, then we probably also agree on everything else that really matters. If you don't agree with me on that point, then let's address that disagreement head-on.

So.

Do you agree that self-ID should not be the basis for transcending sex segregation?


If trans people (trans-identifying men from my point of view - the women are a problem for men to decide what they want to do with and they're not the topic of this thread anyway) weren't constantly and aggressively pushing for more and more access into women's single-sex spaces and categories, we wouldn't even be having a discussion. We'd be letting them get on with whatever it is they get on with and not worrying about it.

And it turns out there is no middle ground. There is no way you can say, we'll give the nice men, or the harmless men, or even the men who have signed a certain bit of paper, the legal right to be in women's spaces, and keep any of the others out if they want to come in.

This is the absolute kernel of the disagreement. We want our stuff back. We want our single-sex spaces back and we want our right of association back and we want our language back. And we are getting increasingly testy with those who bloviate and spin and call us names in an effort to stop us getting our stuff back.

If there are problems some men have that need solutions, then find the solutions. Men, find the solutions to the problems that some of your sex experience, and do it in your own space and your own time and don't expect women to do the emotional and physical work of being human shields for disturbed men, and give up all their own rights in the process.
 
Men, find the solutions to the problems that some of your sex experience, and do it in your own space and your own time and don't expect women to do the emotional and physical work of being human shields for disturbed men, and give up all their own rights in the process.
I don't think we can reasonably expect men to solve this problem by themselves so long as the suffragists have their way.



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And just for fun. I think this basically wins the internet.

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Men can only solve problems in their "own space" and on their "own time" when they completely control an institution and women don't get a say in the process. This may hold true in some private golf clubs, but not in places like ‎Holyrood.


I am suggesting that men step up and publicly declare that all males are safe and welcome in male spaces, and they do not require women to take on the burden of coddling the ones with identity issues. And to work to make it so.

Men are pretty silent about this, on the whole. I'm seeing precious little positive moves to do anything practical to provide a solution to the trans issue that doesn't involve appropriating women's spaces.
 
What the hell is the world coming to when I am approvingly linking to articles in the Times written by Tories and laying into Nicola Sturgeon? However, it's an excellent article that really understands the issues. And there's a poll.

Good summary in that article.

What puzzles me is why they chose trans rights as their pet project to push. ??

From some articles going back a ways, it seems to me like enacting lax gender laws or human rights dont matter so much as testing the veto power of the U.K. on Scottish legislation ...and that somehow this leads to increased sovereignty or the ability to vote for independence without approval.

Is that way off in conspiracy land?
 
It's not way off in conspiracy land, but I think it's a fundamental misreading of the situation. You're not the only one to think that though.

I think Nicola Sturgeon - however much she may have wanted independence when she was in her teens or twenties - now sees Nicola Sturgeon's career, continuing income and political legacy as far more important than independence. Her strategy since 2015 has been to offer shiny promises but then to kick the whole thing into the long grass, time and time again. She could of course go for the delivery of independence as her political legacy, but I think she's terrified of failure. So she strategises to avoid that particular confrontation like the plague.

She has chosen the gender project as her legacy, it seems. Nothing matters more. It has been suggested, with some plausibility, that since Alex Salmond secured equal marriage legislation (about which she was decidedly cool at the time), she thinks this is an appropriate parallel.

People who have looked into her actual feminist credentials have found them almost entirely absent. She has never done anything to advance the cause of women's rights or supported causes that were advancing women's rights. The entire thing is a con job.
 
I am suggesting that men step up and publicly declare that all males are safe and welcome in male spaces, and they do not require women to take on the burden of coddling the ones with identity issues. And to work to make it so.

Men are pretty silent about this, on the whole. I'm seeing precious little positive moves to do anything practical to provide a solution to the trans issue that doesn't involve appropriating women's spaces.

I'm sympathetic to your complaint. In a more ideal world, that would happen. But the world is far from ideal, and it's an unrealistic hope.

First off, nobody ever cares about the problems of a group they don't belong to as much as the problems of a group they do belong to. That's just human nature, and it largely applies even to good people. There's no point in hoping it could be otherwise. Given that this issue disproportionately impacts women, it's always going to be women who care more about it. That's unavoidable.

Second, the problem isn't just males. As has been pointed out before in this thread, a LOT of women support radical trans rights. You can make excuses for why this is so (internalized misogyny, trying to please men), but the fact remains that it is so. Furthermore, the reverse is also true: plenty of men try to please women, and support for trans rights among women on the left is generally quite strong. The whole phenomenon of "male feminist" (often a superficial affectation) is basically men trying to please women. And lastly, there's a lot of men who just bow to the pressure of political correctness. When you don't have much at stake in the outcome but you face social stigma if you adopt the wrong position, it's easy to just go along to get along. And in this environment, women play a very big role. Women do more to control men's behavior, for better AND for worse, than they generally realize.

For example, the whole "slut shaming" phenomenon. Feminists often portray this as patriarchal oppression, but they have it exactly backwards. Any analysis of motivations should make that obvious. Slut shaming doesn't come primarily from men, it comes primarily from other women. And why would women want to slut shame other women? Because promiscuous women incentivize men's behavior in ways that hurt other women. Men can alter their behavior drastically in response to the demands that women make. Oh sure, a man might not respond to one woman's demands, but to women in general? Men as a group respond. Not always to what women say, but very much to what women do. Women say they don't like the players, but they keep picking them anyways. The problem for women is that they often don't make unified demands. And self-policing of women's behavior (like slut shaming) doesn't always work.

So what demands are women making of men in regards to trans rights? None, really. Yes, you personally are making demands to reign in the trans activists. And I think your demands are completely sensible and reasonable. Personally, I largely agree with your demands. But other women are silent, and still other women are allied with the trans activists, Nicola Sturgeon being a relevant example here. Given this split of opinion among women, there's no real pressure being applied to men as a group to get this right. It would be nice if they did on their own, but that's really not realistic. Men aren't going to move on this in any significant numbers until women do. We can wish it were otherwise, but it just isn't. Adjust accordingly.
 
The US isn't immune to these problems either, it's not just the UK.

https://reduxx.info/exclusive-female-inmate-reports-rape-occurred-in-california-womens-prison/

"The next day, Le says she was told by multiple inmates that the woman had been sexually assaulted by Jonathan Roberston, also known as Siyaah Skylit. Robertson was previously the subject of widespread trans activist campaigns attempting to relocate him from a male facility to the women’s institution he is now in. In 2021, Pink News boosted a petition demanding to have Roberston freed from prison."
 
It's interesting that protests are increasing now, and not just in Scotland. I think that while there are a lot of captured woke handmaidens, even there a fair proportion of them simply can't or won't see the consequences of what they're promoting (but may well do in future), the vast majority of women have no freaking clue what's going on and are going to be mad as hell when they find out.

Here's another one.

Protests launched against naked man in the little girls changing room in Saskatoon pool

Saskatoon parents are protesting after a man who identified as a female repeatedly walked around naked in the girls changing room during young children’s swimming lesson times at the Shaw Centre.

“A male that identifies as female was in the female change room and walking around completely naked. No towel, no underwear,” said a parent in a Facebook group.

Parents have complained to the Shaw Centre about the man who identifies as transgender. The Shaw Centre staff told parents that anyone could use whatever change room aligns with their gender identity. “I have spoken with a supervisor and was told anyone can use any change room based on what gender they identify with,” said a parent in a Facebook group. The Western Standard called the Shaw Centre and was told the same policy.

[snip account of various authorities passing the buck to others]

The parents are considering going to the police and having the man charged with indecency.


I think the snowball is beginning to roll down the hill.
 
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Here's another US one.

Transgender Killer and Rapist Who Blamed His Crimes On His “Female Side” Quietly Moved To A Women’s Prison

A Kansas man convicted for the brutal murder of one woman and the kidnapping of another has begun identifying as transgender while incarcerated and was quietly transferred to a women’s prison in Topeka just days ago. Thomas Preston Lamb, 81, now uses the name Michelle Renee Lamb and is described as “female” in the state Criminal Justice Information System. Lamb was transferred to Topeka Correctional Facility, the state’s only prison for women, on January 27.

Lamb was convicted of kidnapping and murdering Karen Sue Kemmerly, a 24 year-old student at the University of Kansas-Missouri, around December 5, 1969.

Lamb murdered Kemmerly after she commented he was a “handsome man,” which sent him into a violent rage as he saw himself as a woman. Lamb strangled the woman to death, and left her nude corpse in a cornfield. The young student’s body was found approximately five days after her death on December 7.


How many more of these need to come out before governments will realise they're on the wrong side here?

ETA: I read to the end of that (past the ads) and his mother gives a classic description of AGP behaviour starting at the age of about ten. I don't think AGP in itself is necessarily harmful, but when it occurs in conjunction with certain personality disorders, as it seems to do with startling frequency, it can be absolutely lethal.
 
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It's interesting that protests are increasing now, and not just in Scotland. I think that while there are a lot of captured woke handmaidens, even there a fair proportion of them simply can't or won't see the consequences of what they're promoting (but may well do in future), the vast majority of women have no freaking clue what's going on and are going to be mad as hell when they find out.
How many more of these need to come out before governments will realise they're on the wrong side here?

Governments never realize they're on the wrong side of an issue. They only realize (often belatedly) that they're on the wrong side of voters. Until voters wake up, it doesn't matter how many scandals happen.

There is some hope that they are starting to. But such changes of public opinion are hard to predict. Often it doesn't manifest as a gradual transition, but as a preference cascade. Forces build up under the surface until a tipping point is reached, and then everything changes quickly and dramatically. But it's hard to predict when that tipping point will occur.
 
I am suggesting that men step up and publicly declare that all males are safe and welcome in male spaces, and they do not require women to take on the burden of coddling the ones with identity issues.
I hereby declare that males are welcome in the locker room at my local gym, even if they've got a stunning pair of tits. Don't expect conversation, though, that's just awkward.
 
I hereby declare that males are welcome in the locker room at my local gym, even if they've got a stunning pair of tits. Don't expect conversation, though, that's just awkward.

This, though the problem is the males who don't actually want to go anywhere near a male locker room. What are we other males supposed to do? drag them in?
 
I am suggesting that men step up and publicly declare that all males are safe and welcome in male spaces, and they do not require women to take on the burden of coddling the ones with identity issues. And to work to make it so.

Men are pretty silent about this, on the whole. I'm seeing precious little positive moves to do anything practical to provide a solution to the trans issue that doesn't involve appropriating women's spaces.

That could work, especially in progressive areas however it's not what transwomen want. The safety issue WRT mean's rooms is probably fake but I suppose somebody could come up with some sort of sticker or notice to put on the men's room door that this facility is "trand friendly, harassment will not be tolerated" or something like that.

Put we're seeing people getting cancelled for stating the obvious, like there's only 2 biological sexes (because nobody really cares about the gender thing anymore) So I have this sneaking suspicion transwomen will reject this idea like they did the idea of a third, gender neutral, bathroom.
 
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