Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Sherkeu]

Thankfully in the UK we aren’t faced with such a dire choice. In the UK (and just been again reinforced via the response to the petition) sex segregated facilities and services are entirely legal and appropriate to keep women safe regardless of whether someone has a GRC that has changed their official gender or not.

When you say "keep women safe", who do you mean? Biological female women?
Seems like you are acknowleging that transwomen are NOT always women in many respects. ie not considered females and not 100% to be allowed in a female space.

Females, born female, are always considered female, and are never sent, against their will, to male spaces.
Males, who may be legally considered female, are not always considered female- as in being treated the same as persons born female. No region or juristiction anywhere in the world operates this way to treat male bodies as female- and for valid reasons.

 

[JoeMorgue]

JEEZ IT'S LIKE THE DEFINITION OF WOMAN IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE DISCUSSION OR SOMETHING.

 

[Darat]

Is Bob-level semantic nit picking all you can contribute? Yes, apparently it is.

"Terms of employment", when used colloquially, can mean more than just what's in a contract. It means what you're required to do, even if it's not made explicit within the contract. So if you work in a women-only prison and there are only women prisoners there, then your terms of employment (in the colloquial sense that everyone except you understands) include working with only women prisoners, whether or not that's contractually specified.

So stop with the deliberate obtuseness. It's growing tiresome.

The “now I’m just using it as a colloquialism” goal post moving seems to be a feature of this thread, quite strange since so many participants put much store about using the correct words to describe things they consider important.

The trans issue with regards to prisons is not about prison officers but the prisoners, focusing on the prison officers is to me a red herring. Prisoners should be placed according to risk, and that risk assessment should be comprised of the risk to themselves and the risk to other prisoners. Therefore rapists should not be placed in the general population of female prisoners, identifying as a trans women should only come into the consideration of their risk from other prisoners.

 

[Sherkeu]

JEEZ IT'S LIKE THE DEFINITION OF WOMAN IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE DISCUSSION OR SOMETHING.

haha.
Women are born female. So are girls.
Males are not born female and do not 'become' girls and women. They can become 'trans women" and live lives of acceptance as that without rights to intimate and private 'female only' spaces.
(A super duper tiny percentage have a sex chromosome anomoly- we do know of it)

Glad to have you on our side now.


/I wish this was end thread

 

[Darat]

When you say "keep women safe", who do you mean? Biological female women?
Seems like you are acknowleging that transwomen are NOT always women in many respects. ie not considered females and not 100% to be allowed in a female space. Females, born female, are always considered female, and are never sent, against their will, to male spaces.
Males, who may be legally considered female, are not always considered female- as in being treated the same as persons born female. No region or juristiction anywhere in the world operates this way to treat male bodies as female- and for valid reasons.

I’ve never said anything else in all the years I’ve been posting in this continuing thread. It’s why I signed the petition about the equality act, it’s why I say rapists should never be housed in the general population in a woman’s prison. It is why I don’t think a female prison officer should be forced to search a rapist whether that rapist identifies as a trans woman or not.

In my view there are clearly certain areas from which - no matter how sympathetic I may be about a trans person’s struggles and feelings - that they should be excluded from based on their (biological) sex.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't have "a side" and if I did it would be pissing everyone in this discussion off.

 

[Ziggurat]

The “now I’m just using it as a colloquialism” goal post moving seems to be a feature of this thread

No, Darat, it's not a goalpost move. That's how normal people talk, all the bloody time. It's the default, when you aren't working in a technical situation. You're the only one who has tried to make these terms narrow technical ones. Everyone else understood them as being broader. You moved the goalpost, not anyone else.

The trans issue with regards to prisons is not about prison officers but the prisoners,

No, it's about both. I think the prisoner issue is more important, but the prison officer issue still exists. That you personally don't care about it doesn't mean no one else is entitled to.

And frankly, the prison guard issue actually DOES matter, because willingness aside, a lot of female prison guards aren't capable of safely handling a male prisoner if he gets violent. If female prisons have to ensure that they have staff who can physically subdue a male prisoner, that puts an extra burden on their staffing requirements that they don't have with female prisoners and probably cannot always meet right now. There's a real safety concern here which you're ignoring.

Prisoners should be placed according to risk, and that risk assessment should be comprised of the risk to themselves and the risk to other prisoners.

Yes, they should be. But as we have seen, they aren't.

Therefore rapists should not be placed in the general population of female prisoners,

They shouldn't be placed in women's prisons at all, segregated or not. There's no reason to. If they are at risk from other male prisoners, then segregate them from male prisoners in a male prison. What's the point in putting them in a female prison but segregating them from all the females? What benefit accrues?

identifying as a trans women should only come into the consideration of their risk from other prisoners.

Again, what should happen isn't what is happening. You seem to believe that everything will happen as it should, and that's simply not the case, at all.

 

[Darat]

I don't have "a side" and if I did it would be pissing everyone in this discussion off.

As you can see that it is very definitely not allowed in this thread, if you aren’t in lockstep with everything you are the enemy!

 

[Sherkeu]

I’ve never said anything else in all the years I’ve been posting in this continuing thread. It’s why I signed the petition about the equality act, it’s why I say rapists should never be housed in the general population in a woman’s prison. It is why I don’t think a female prison officer should be forced to search a rapist whether that rapist identifies as a trans woman or not.

In my view there are clearly certain areas from which - no matter how sympathetic I may be about a trans person’s struggles and feelings - that they should be excluded from based on their (biological) sex.

Apologies for any intent to paint you a certain way. In the US, a female officer WOULD be required to do searches on male bodies, mainly the wide spreading of the butt cheeks to check for contraband. This is because the original argument of transwomen in female prisons comes under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) as Gender Dysphoria, and as such, part of their essential treatment is to not be handled or spoke to in any way different from other females. the reason being that there is a risk of dire (possibly lethal) psychological harm. UK may differ.

Nurses, of either sex, deal with genitals all the time. Thats just taking care of anatomy.
It is the specific access of male predators in prison demanding that females intimately search them that seems insane here.

 

[Darat]

And yet, male sex offenders keep ending up in women's prisons. Something isn't working. And you're in denial.

In denial about what?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hey here's a radical idea. If getting assaulted stops being part of being in prison then what does it matter?

"We can't perform the basic function of keeping prisoners from assaulting each other so let's have a huge roundabout discussion about gender identify" seems less than ideal to me.

 

[Sherkeu]

As you can see that it is very definitely not allowed in this thread, if you aren’t in lockstep with everything you are the enemy!

Not true. I am perfectly willing and DO give accommodation to males who want to 'act' or 'live' as a woman. And I really do, in my real life. I'm not a jerk.

There are restrictions though.

Sports
Prisons
Private Spas
(some)Locker rooms
Clinical trials for pharma- based on sex
Scientific sex-based studies

You cant combine male and female into any of this and expect good results.
These common sense resctrictions have people railing against them. A movement that wants to remove sex differneces, to erase the meaning of being female or male- and for my own concerns, in keeping females safe.

That is what I am against.

 

[Ziggurat]

In denial about what?

That there's a major problem with how trans prisoners are currently being handled, a problem which rewards abuse of the system by predators.

 

[Darat]

No, Darat, it's not a goalpost move. That's how normal people talk, all the bloody time. It's the default, when you aren't working in a technical situation. You're the only one who has tried to make these terms narrow technical ones. Everyone else understood them as being broader. You moved the goalpost, not anyone else.

Apart of course when nothing is more important than using the right word….

No, it's about both. I think the prisoner issue is more important, but the prison officer issue still exists. That you personally don't care about it doesn't mean no one else is entitled to.

Making things up again. Is it too hard to manage even a single post that actually deals with what I have posted?

And frankly, the prison guard issue actually DOES matter, because willingness aside, a lot of female prison guards aren't capable of safely handling a male prisoner if he gets violent. If female prisons have to ensure that they have staff who can physically subdue a male prisoner, that puts an extra burden on their staffing requirements that they don't have with female prisoners and probably cannot always meet right now. There's a real safety concern here which you're ignoring.

Try addressing something I have posted rather than your fantasies of what I have posted.

Yes, they should be. But as we have seen, they aren't.

Yes - mistakes keep happening, the world sadly is not perfect.

They shouldn't be placed in women's prisons at all, segregated or not. There's no reason to. If they are at risk from other male prisoners, then segregate them from male prisoners in a male prison. What's the point in putting them in a female prison but segregating them from all the females? What benefit accrues?

I’d say it should depend on the prison estate and what can be accommodated, I think mandating that level of operations would be counter productive that’s what we have governors and the like for. (At the moment we are struggling to provide adequate prisons and staffing levels across all the prison services, overcrowded and understaffed prisons are sadly the norm.)

Again, what should happen isn't what is happening. You seem to believe that everything will happen as it should, and that's simply not the case, at all.

Your expectation that we can somehow avoid all mistakes, get everything 100% correct 100% of the time is very unrealistic.

The current and soon to be updated transgender prisoner policy framework (E&W) seems to me to be a very sensible approach. Do you not agree?

 

[Ziggurat]

Apart of course when nothing is more important than using the right word….

You are the only person who doesn't understand what other people mean. And yet, everyone but you is to blame.

Making things up again. Is it too hard to manage even a single post that actually deals with what I have posted?

Project much?

Yes - mistakes keep happening, the world sadly is not perfect.

These aren't mistakes. That's the point. The system has been designed to work this way. All of this was predictable, and predicted. The problem isn't mistakes, it's the system.

I’d say it should depend on the prison estate and what can be accommodated, I think mandating that level of operations would be counter productive that’s what we have governors and the like for.

And when a governor is telling you that there is a systematic problem, you just ignore it.

Your expectation that we can somehow avoid all mistakes, get everything 100% correct 100% of the time is very unrealistic.

I've never said anything of the sort. And again, it's not a matter of "mistakes". It's a matter of bad policy.

The current and soon to be updated transgender prisoner policy framework (E&W) seems to me to be a very sensible approach. Do you not agree?

The current policy is obviously not a sensible approach because it keeps producing bad results and incentivizing bad behavior. The coming update may be a step in the right direction, I'm not intimately familiar with it, hopefully it is.

 

[Darat]

That there's a major problem with how trans prisoners are currently being handled, a problem which rewards abuse of the system by predators.

There certainly are mistakes happening, but is it a major problem? I honestly don’t know. We have figures such as 90% of all transwomen prisoners are held in men’s prisons, why are 10% not? Are those 10% in the general population of women’s prisons? Has a proper risk assessment been carried out on that 10%? There is (at least in E&W) absolutely no legal obligation to agree to moving a transwoman to a woman’s prison.

I think it has been announced that they are going to improve the guidelines to make it explicitly clear that no rapist etc. identifying as a transwoman can even be considered to be moved to a woman’s prison regardless of any formal risk assessment. I think such changes shouldn’t have needed to be made, it should always have been clear that the risk was too high but perhaps it will help prevent some future mistakes to make it so explicit.

 

[Sherkeu]

There was a documentary by VICE on trnas women in prison here in California
It;s called the Solanpo prison in Vacaville- maybe 2 hours drive from me.

They are housed with other male inmates and have thir complaints. Some would not want to move to a women's prison because they 'like men'. Othere hoped to get SRS to be able to move. Their complaints there dont seem to be above and beyond prison being a crap place to be with guards harrassing them.

There are other pressing concerns with the infirm, the elderly, gangs, mental illness, drug addiction, etc.... much bigger populations of concern.
So, solve the trans issue, like other mental issues, but not by putting them with the women.
Notice, they never ever go to any womens prison to ask what the women think of it. None of the videos or articles I have come across that stress the dire harm to trans prisoners (who want to transfer to womens areas) ever go to the women's areas and ask what they think of it or how they have handled it if it happens. Mostly it is Males are violant and these (male)women should be moved. It is so one-sided.

Watch it:

 

[Rolfe]

Scotland isn't going to be adopting these new E&W guidelines, which I have to say look fairly sensible to me. Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday that there should be no absolute requirement that all transwomen convicted of rape should serve their sentences in a men's prison, because that might "catch" people who should not be caught.

 

[Darat]

You are the only person who doesn't understand what other people mean. And yet, everyone but you is to blame.

Still making up things that I haven’t posted.

Project much?

Nope.

These aren't mistakes. That's the point. The system has been designed to work this way. All of this was predictable, and predicted. The problem isn't mistakes, it's the system.

You have no idea what the system is do you?

And when a governor is telling you that there is a systematic problem, you just ignore it.

Making things up again.

I've never said anything of the sort. And again, it's not a matter of "mistakes". It's a matter of bad policy.

Please provide a link to what you think the policy is.

The current policy is obviously not a sensible approach because it keeps producing bad results and incentivizing bad behavior. The coming update may be a step in the right direction, I'm not intimately familiar with it, hopefully it is.

You are again showing you do not know what the current policy is.

 

[Rolfe]

Get this thread while it's hot.

https://twitter.com/SharynMuir/status/1619053097833365504