Electric universe theories here.

[Sol88]

Form/power, whichever.



By being hot and moving as what you quoted notes. For the supermassive black hole similarity noted. IIRC the magnetic field of the rotating blackhole drives the hot and subsequently ionized particles from the accretion disk and out the poles. Both the accretion disk and driving body (blackhole or protostar) should lose rotational kinetic energy as it is dumped to the jets.

Did you forget the electric field?

Oversight?

 

[jonesdave116]

It’s a real mystery, ay?

The very electric currents that form the star also powers it.

What would happen if this orphaned protostar wandered into our neighbourhood?

The star is not powered by any currents, nor formed by them. That is not what the story is about. That woo is impossible.

 

[Sol88]

Yet there it is...

 

[jonesdave116]

Yet there it is...

And nobody is claiming it is being formed by currents, nor powered by them! Nor is there any observation to show such nonsense. This is a paper that is as mainstream as it gets re stellar formation!

 

[tusenfem]

A generator of electric fields...



Astronomers spot an orphaned protostar

The ELECTRIC SUN in an ELECTRIC UNIVERSE.

So you say the external generator that drives the current that lights up the star is ... the star itself.
Wow, just wow.

 

[steenkh]

Yet there it is...

I also fail to see that this article points to electric woo (battery in the sky) to generate the currents. On the contrary, gravity is quite clearly the cause.

Why do you think that real science is unaware of electricity, and that any mention of it must support the EU?

 

[The Man]

Did you forget the electric field?

Oversight?

Nope, I mentioned the charged particles being driven by the rotating magnetic field. Also, as I recall, an electric field is just a magnetic field (and visa versa) as seen from a different inertial frame.

So let me get this straight, the EU claim for currents powering or forming a star is charged particles leaving the star en masse and overall neutral polarity?

That reduces both the mass and energy of the star, not power it.

 

[jonesdave116]

Nope, I mentioned the charged particles being driven by the rotating magnetic field. Also, as I recall, an electric field is just a magnetic field (and visa versa) as seen from a different inertial frame.

So let me get this straight, the EU claim for currents powering or forming a star is charged particles leaving the star en masse and overall neutral polarity?

That reduces both the mass and energy of the star, not power it.

Well, to give a potted history of this impossible 'model', as I understand it from having trawled through some ancient stuff here and elsewhere, it goes something like this;

A Velikovskian civil engineer, Ralph Juergens, proposed this silly 'model' back in the 60s or 70s. It was found in a shoebox after he had died, and 'published' in a Velikovskian rag on which Juergens was a contributor/ editor, or some such.
His 'model' had an enormous potential between the heliopause and the Sun (why?). Billions of Volts. This would cause the incoming electrons to be highly relativistic. To the best of my knowledge, he had them coming in at all latitudes. See the problem here? Evidently, so did even the klutz Don Scott. They would be rather noticeable as they hammered into the nightside of every planet in the solar system, including making rather a show in those with magnetospheres.

So, Scott, in his ignorance of all things plasma physics, had them coming in at the poles, where we couldn't detect them, of course! And then Ulysses happened. And saw no such thing. So, Scott thought he would reduce the potential and have them wandering in at half-rat power, at all latitudes again. There were so slow (a few cm/s?) that our spacecraft couldn't possible detect them! How convenient! What he failed to realise is that it isn't just the velocity of the particle that you need to take into account, but the combined velocity of the particle and the craft that would detect them! And given the velocity of most spacecraft, they would easily be detected if they were there.

Which also leads to the problem of the outgoing magnetic field that is carried by the solar wind, all the way to the heliopause. Charged particles cannot just ignore that field, and drift in past it, as if it didn't exist. At least, not if you understand basic plasma physics and EM. Scott obviously doesn't. They would be picked up by it and taken right back whence they impossible came.

So, dilemma for the Velikovskians! Do they reintroduce Juergens relativistic electrons, which would easily be detected, and confine them to the poles? Once more out of sight? That is what seems to have happened. The excuse being that Ulysses didn't fly directly over the poles, so there may be a small window of opportunity for the electrons to sneak in undetected. Or a small volume of space where the Sun's magnetic field is not heading outwards, but inwards, so that they can remain non-relativistic and head inwards. Seems to me that is the only places they can go, given their ignorance of the relevant science.

However, we don't need Ulysses to tell us the magnetic field morphology closer to the limb at the poles during eclipses, or when using a coronagraph. We can see the field traced out by the plasma. It is doing the same stuff at the poles as elsewhere. All heading outwards.

This is what happens when unqualified amateurs try to do science! And just to compound Scott's ignorance, he claims the solar wind is a current of almost exclusively ions, heading out, that is balanced by this non-existent, impossible current of incoming electrons. This despite ~ six decades of in-situ detections putting the lie to that. His claim, on a video I saw where he was asked about this by one of the ignorant followers with his own channel, is that the spacecraft cannot tell which direction the electrons and ions are heading! Which they most certainly can. It is kind of an important thing to know. And that puts him between a rock and a hard place. If the electrons are heading in at the poles, they will carry an incoming field with them. That is what currents do. The ions must then carry a field outward with them in the ecliptic. But we see electrons and ions in the ecliptic! His other option is to revert to Juergens' woo, and have electrons heading in along the ecliptic or at all latitudes. Which would mean the field the incoming electrons are carrying would smack into the one that must be carried by the outgoing ions! Confused? You will be! As a famous American spoof soap back in the day used to say!

The whole thing is on the same level as flat earth. Add to this the claim that the neutrinos we detect, which Scott and Thornhill know must come from fusion, are being created on the surface/ in the solar atmosphere, by fusion of heavy elements there! Which is impossible. Not hot enough, nor dense enough. And ~ 99% of the neutrinos we detect are from the first step in the p-p chain. Bugger all heavy element fusion. Then when you chuck in the gamma rays that such fusion would constantly bombard us with, meaning life would never have evolved on this planet, and you start to see why Sol is reluctant to defend his mythologist buddies. He thinks that if he keeps typing 'electric star', it will somehow alter the laws of physics enough to allow for such flat earth level woo. It won't.

Anybody reading this that thinks the electric sun 'model' is a goer, I have a scarcely used bridge for sale!

 

[The Man]

Thanks for that detailed and concise history jonesdave116.

For proponents of an electrical universe and even electrical engineers in some cases they seem to have a pretty poor understanding of just basic electrodynamics. Sure plasma physics can be rough and require some more specialized knowledge but they seem to fall short of even just basic electricity.

Heck, even after specifically mentioning a "generator of electric fields" Sol88 still felt the need to ask "How" kinetic energy gets transferred into electromagnetic energy.

Perhaps there was suppose to be some sort of 'gotcha' there, however that is as likely as outward jets powering their source. It's as if the mere mention of electromagnetism makes them all aquiver, while just standard fare for mainstream science.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Interestingly, Sol88 has railed against things like dark matter a lot, but his 'model' requires even more dark invisible energy.

After all, if the sun is powered by some electric current it needs in input from somewhere, with a power equal to or larger than the output of the sun.
This needs to be a uniform input in the from of a globe, otherwise we'd see the massive magnetic field this would create.
Yet that means earth should be in the way of that current and receive as much power from that current as we receive from the sun.
And yet, this massive amount of energy is totally undetectable.
Even though, in Sol88's 'model' this energy is electricity and should therefore be easily detected.

The moment any form of logic is applied to the EU 'model' it falls apart.

 

[jonesdave116]

Thanks for that detailed and concise history jonesdave116.

For proponents of an electrical universe and even electrical engineers in some cases they seem to have a pretty poor understanding of just basic electrodynamics.

Indeed. Or even basic physics.

Thornhill claims to have been inspired by Velikovsky's moronic tales. He claims to have a BSc degree in 'physics and electronics'. I always thought the two were separate. Maybe in 1960s Australia there was such a degree.
So, when reading V's accounts of Venus getting so close to Earth that they shared atmospheres (ditto with Venus and Mars, iirc, and maybe even Earth and Mars) why did he not immediately think, 'Roche limit, dummy!'
This, I believe, is the basis of the claim for the formation of Valles Marineris by electrical woo! Interplanetary space is too conductive for lightning bolts, but when the planets are close together........Kapow! Sigh.

Then there was the video I referred to earlier, on a channel called 'See the Pattern', by a guy who, frighteningly, I have been told, teaches physics to high school students in the UK! Despite being an engineer.
He proposed to Scott and Thornhill that the mainstream would claim that the solar wind was an equal amount of ions and electrons heading outward from the Sun, as measured.
Now, they need ions to be heading out and electrons heading in. Hence why the comedy duo claimed that the scientists couldn't tell in which direction each of the oppositely charged particles were going! What STP didn't ask them was how the electrons might possibly be heading inward, in the opposite direction to the ions, when the magnetic field is heading out in the same direction as the ions? What are electrons even doing in the ecliptic in their 'model'?

I think Tusenfem said, years ago, when addressing some of Scott's woo, 'typical EE, thinking of everything being in wires', or words to that effect.

Sure, you can do all sorts of stuff by passing a current through a conductive medium (copper wire) surrounded by an insulator (plastic coating). Plasma doesn't work like that. The whole shooting match (space) is a conductive medium. There is no plastic sleeve separating the oppositely charged particles, and keeping them apart. Any attempt to separate them is going to set up an electric field that will try to bring them back together again. Try stopping it. This seems to be beyond certain EEs. Not all of them, I'm sure. Most of them stay in their lane.

I think some of this comes from the fact that Alfven was an EE. Not much else he could be in those days. I don't think 'plasma physics' was a thing when he was studying, and didn't have any qualifications related to it that you could take. Difference between Scott and Alfven is that the former doesn't understand PP and the latter did. As he did in 1939 when telling us that the solar wind could not be a current. For obvious reasons that are beyond Scott and Thornhill. And Sol88.

 

[jonesdave116]

The moment any form of logic physics is applied to the EU 'model' it falls apart.

FTFY

 

[steenkh]

It's as if the mere mention of electromagnetism makes them all aquiver, while just standard fare for mainstream science.

That is exactly right. If electromagnetism is somehow involved - then EU!

Sol88 keeps talking as if real science has never heard of electromagnetism, and if it is mentioned in a paper, it is a huge “gotcha”-moment, and a victory in his mind.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sure, you can do all sorts of stuff by passing a current through a conductive medium (copper wire) surrounded by an insulator (plastic coating). Plasma doesn't work like that. The whole shooting match (space) is a conductive medium. There is no plastic sleeve separating the oppositely charged particles, and keeping them apart. Any attempt to separate them is going to set up an electric field that will try to bring them back together again. Try stopping it. This seems to be beyond certain EEs. Not all of them, I'm sure. Most of them stay in their lane.

This is all true, but there's a reason lots of people think of a vacuum as being insulating which you didn't touch on. If you put a voltage between two wires separated by a vacuum, you won't usually get any current between them. So in a lot of familiar contexts it seems like vacuums are insulating. But it's not the vacuum, it's the work function of the metal which binds the electrons to it. Overcome the work function and there's no resistance.

But plasmas don't have a work function. Electrons can leave the plasma any time there is a field. So vacuums don't even act as a pseudo-insulator for plasma like they do for metals. And electrons will move to cancel any electric field.

 

[Sol88]

Great story there jd116. though its incorrect it is very entertaining.

Unfortunately the more ignorant amongst us just seem to struggle with the basics.

The Ulysses did actual find something that looks remarkably like the ELECTRIC SUN.



Video Here

Just like Alfvén Triumphs Again (& Again)

The charged dust seems to have no trouble, why would'nt the electrons as well?

Now, I know jd116 has no idea about complex plasmas as he struggles with is plasma is a gas, like most astronomers.

but...

Throw a little charged dust into the mix and he blown completely out of his depth.

Dust particles from outer space

Researchers have analyzed the Ulysses interstellar dust measurements

When in 1990 the solar probe Ulysses embarked on its 19-year-long exploration tour, the participating researchers turned their attention not only to our Sun, but also to significantly smaller research objects: interstellar dust particles advancing from the depth of space into our solar system.

Wait, what?

Ulysses is the only spacecraft so far that has left the orbital plane of the planets and has flown over the Sun's poles. While interplanetary dust produced within our planetary system is concentrated in the orbital plane, interstellar dust can be measured well outside this plane.

Is the dust charged though? Well, apparently.

In 2005, however, a different picture emerged: The far-traveled particles reached the dust detector from a shifted direction. "Our simulations suggest that this effect is likely due to the variations of the solar and interplanetary magnetic field," says Veerle Sterken from ISSI who performed the simulations and led the interpretation of the data. "Altered intial conditions within the Local Interstellar Cloud are likely not the reason."

but

Are they charged?

"Efforts to characterize the dust outside our solar system with the help of ground-based observations from Earth have not revealed such large sizes”, says Krüger. In return, the very small particles, which astronomers typically find with telescopes, cannot be found in Ulysses measurements. As computer simulations show, compared to their mass these tiny particles become strongly electrically charged within the solar system, are deflected and thus filtered out of the main interstellar dust stream.

Right, good to know.

The solar wind is comprised of current sheets and flux tubes. Electric currents.

 

[Sol88]

That is exactly right. If electromagnetism is somehow involved - then EU!

Sol88 keeps talking as if real science has never heard of electromagnetism, and if it is mentioned in a paper, it is a huge “gotcha”-moment, and a victory in his mind.

Well, not really.

What we, the EU, have more of an issue is why do you cant seem to grasp the electric fields and charge seperation.

Your math just wont allow it.

The real gotcha moments are when. like magnetic reconnection, it's realised that they are reconfiguring electric currents.

This needs some non MHD math.

Magnetic reconnection is an electrical phenomena. Always has been always will be.

 

[Sol88]

This is all true, but there's a reason lots of people think of a vacuum as being insulating which you didn't touch on. If you put a voltage between two wires separated by a vacuum, you won't usually get any current between them. So in a lot of familiar contexts it seems like vacuums are insulating. But it's not the vacuum, it's the work function of the metal which binds the electrons to it. Overcome the work function and there's no resistance.

But plasmas don't have a work function. Electrons can leave the plasma any time there is a field. So vacuums don't even act as a pseudo-insulator for plasma like they do for metals. And electrons will move to cancel any electric field.

And electrons will move to cancel any electric field, unless the electric field is being DRIVEN.

Like me 'ol mate, a PLASMA DOUBLE layer. And plasma instabilities in general.

This is observed and measured at comets. Why dose'nt their electric field not just be neutralised? As you suggest incorrectly.

Space is not a vacuum. Space is PLASMA, 99.6% as it turns out.

Good question for you to go look into is why there is an electric field on the Sun generating electric currents?

Off ya toddle...

You are up to speed on plasmoid production within the current sheets of the solar wind?

 

[Sol88]

Oh, you might have missed PLASMA is not a perfect conductor.

ouch!

 

[tusenfem]

Just like Alfvén Triumphs Again (& Again)

Alfvén = MHD

 

[Sol88]

Said it was wrong too.