Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

People exercising their right to freedom of association is not an attack on anyone else's right to free speech. If you get fired, disinvited, or deplatformed, you still have free speech.

So then, commies still had freedom of speech in 1950s hollywood?

ETA: There's not much point in taking this further really. I can't imagine a way to convince you that shouting folks down and trying to get them fired for speaking their minds is a bad thing. I don't know how you could convince me its not a bad thing.

I do agree private citizens using their free speech rights to prevent others from speeking is fundamentally different from the government doing it though. Legal use of force and what not, etc. In my mind, that doesn't make it ok to shout folks down just because you disagree with them though.

I'll probably keep at it though, there might be members of the audience who are ambivalent regarding the value of a culture of free speech along with a legal framework of free speech.
 
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So then, commies still had freedom of speech in 1950s hollywood?

ETA: There's not much point in taking this further really. I can't imagine a way to convince you that shouting folks down and trying to get them fired for speaking their minds is a bad thing. I don't know how you could convince me its not a bad thing.

I do agree private citizens using their free speech rights to prevent others from speeking is fundamentally different from the government doing it though. Legal use of force and what not, etc. In my mind, that doesn't make it ok to shout folks down just because you disagree with them though.

"Bad thing" =/= "Attack on free speech".

And what constitutes a "bad thing" is subjective. Luckily, we have a fundamental right to freedom of association in this country so that no one's subjective take on what constitutes a "bad thing" will force anyone to associate with people they don't want to.

Also, the Hollywood blacklist was a conspiracy between studio power brokers to deny certain people employment. How you connect that to people who have no actual power to get someone fired saying someone should get fired, I have no idea.
 
"Bad thing" =/= "Attack on free speech".

And what constitutes a "bad thing" is subjective. Luckily, we have a fundamental right to freedom of association in this country so that no one's subjective take on what constitutes a "bad thing" will force anyone to associate with people they don't want to.

Also, the Hollywood blacklist was a conspiracy between studio power brokers to deny certain people employment. How you connect that to people who have no actual power to get someone fired saying someone should get fired, I have no idea.

You have a valid point, its not an exact parallel between the black list and modern cancel culture. A better comparison would be 1980s family values type letter writing campaigs to get tv shows of the air or the campaign against the Dixie Chicks.

Regardless, in this case, attempts to get folks fired or deplatformed are pretty clearly attacks on free speech. I honestly don't see how that isn't obvious. Its not censorship as its not the government but its still pretty clearly an attack on free speech. A group getting together and saying I don't like what you are saying so we are going to try an keep you from saying it or at least punish you for saying it. The attempts to get folks fired are especially bad in my opinion. Thats basically saying I don't like what you are saying so you shouldn't be allowed to work.
 
Sure, that's why Cancel Culture isn't a violation of the first amendment but it is an attack on free speech. Folks have the right to try an get others fired because they don't like the other guys opinions, The rest of us also have the right to call those folks ********.

So...when you call folks ******** it's simply like, your opinion, man. But if those other people say they won't do business with an ******** then they're objectively bad people who are attacking free speech?

You (general) are free to be an ******* or a bigot. But sometimes the consequences of being a bigot in public mean that people don't want to do business with a company that puts a bigot or an ******* out there as a representative. So, you get your free speech to say whatever ******* or bigot thing you want to, but "free speech" doesn't exempt you from the consequences of what you say. And facing the consequences of your own actions is not an attack on free speech. (again, all "you"s in this paragraph are intented to be general you, not ahhell specific you)
 
You have a valid point, its not an exact parallel between the black list and modern cancel culture. A better comparison would be 1980s family values type letter writing campaigs to get tv shows of the air or the campaign against the Dixie Chicks.

That's exactly correct. You'll notice that no one was calling it "cancel culture" back then, and there were no breathless diatribes about the erosion of free speech. In other words, this phenomenon was going on long before we had a catchy name for it, and somehow society hasn't collapsed yet.

Regardless, in this case, attempts to get folks fired or deplatformed are pretty clearly attacks on free speech. I honestly don't see how that isn't obvious. Its not censorship as its not the government but its still pretty clearly an attack on free speech. A group getting together and saying I don't like what you are saying so we are going to try an keep you from saying it or at least punish you for saying it. The attempts to get folks fired are especially bad in my opinion. Thats basically saying I don't like what you are saying so you shouldn't be allowed to work.

Other people saying things you don't like will never be an attack on free speech, no matter how much you want it be. It is and will always be just an other expression of free speech.

If you think it's "bad", that is your prerogative. Luckily, you have the right to express that as an expression of your free speech.

As a side note, I think someone saying "you shouldn't be allowed to work" is fairly innocuous in terms of offensive speech, considering that a lot people use their free speech to tell others they shouldn't be allowed to exist.
 
That's exactly correct. You'll notice that no one was calling it "cancel culture" back then, and there were no breathless diatribes about the erosion of free speech. In other words, this phenomenon was going on long before we had a catchy name for it, and somehow society hasn't collapsed yet.
No, they didn't call it cancel culture but there were definite breathless diatribes against it. As I recall, there was much kvetching about much less aggressive attacks on free speech. Things likethe V chip and labeling records with content warnings got quite a bit of push back.

There were widespread compaigns to get howard stern off the air too. The only thing new about the current version is that there are a lot of leftist who support it. That was not generally the case in the past. It was almost always conservatives in the day.

Other people saying things you don't like will never be an attack on free speech, no matter how much you want it be. It is and will always be just an other expression of free speech.

If you think it's "bad", that is your prerogative. Luckily, you have the right to express that as an expression of your free speech.

As a side note, I think someone saying "you shouldn't be allowed to work" is fairly innocuous in terms of offensive speech, considering that a lot people use their free speech to tell others they shouldn't be allowed to exist.
There is a big difference between just saying, I don't think you should work and organizing a compaign to ensure that you don't work.

Every once in a while I run accross folks who just see things so differently from me, I don't even know how to approach the conversation in a way that they can understand and I don't quite know how to see things from their perspective. This might be one of those times.

The thing I find confusing is that until recently it was almost always lefties getting canceled, you'd think lefties would have more sympathy for it as a result.
 
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No, they didn't call it cancel culture but there were definite breathless diatribes against it. As I recall, there was much kvetching about much less aggressive attacks on free speech. Things likethe V chip and labeling records with content warnings got quite a bit of push back.

There were widespread compaigns to get howard stern off the air too. The only thing new about the current version is that there are a lot of leftist who support it. That was not generally the case in the past. It was almost always conservatives in the day.

I think you might be zeroing in why this has suddenly become a problem.

There is a big difference between just saying, I don't think you should work and organizing a compaign to ensure that you don't work.

The only people who can ensure that someone doesn't work are those that actually do the hiring and firing. Someone saying "I don't think you should be allowed to work" does not have that power.

Every once in a while I run accross folks who just see things so differently from me, I don't even know how to approach the conversation in a way that they can understand and I don't quite know how to see things from their perspective. This might be one of those times.

The thing I find confusing is that until recently it was almost always lefties getting canceled, you'd think lefties would have more sympathy for it as a result.

It depends on the specific case, doesn't it? The example of the professor not having their contract renewed because they displayed a picture of Mohammed has created a huge uproar within traditionally "leftist" circles, because it was viewed as unjust.

But if an obnoxious bigot gets fired for being an obnoxious bigot, I'm not sure why anyone should care.

If you are truly interested in having a productive discussion about his issue, it would help if we examined nuances and stopped with the lazy generalities.
 
No, they didn't call it cancel culture but there were definite breathless diatribes against it. As I recall, there was much kvetching about much less aggressive attacks on free speech. Things likethe V chip and labeling records with content warnings got quite a bit of push back.

There were widespread compaigns to get howard stern off the air too. The only thing new about the current version is that there are a lot of leftist who support it. That was not generally the case in the past. It was almost always conservatives in the day.

There is a big difference between just saying, I don't think you should work and organizing a compaign to ensure that you don't work.

Every once in a while I run accross folks who just see things so differently from me, I don't even know how to approach the conversation in a way that they can understand and I don't quite know how to see things from their perspective. This might be one of those times.

The thing I find confusing is that until recently it was almost always lefties getting canceled, you'd think lefties would have more sympathy for it as a result.

The v-chip thing and the record ratings thing were often championed by left-wing politicians.

I just return to the facts of the market; eventually, and even now and in the recent past social media is seen by accountants as the silly ephemera of over-amplified people whose da rings will have little to no effect on the bottom line.

This too shall pass.

Or economics doesn’t work
 
That's exactly correct. You'll notice that no one was calling it "cancel culture" back then, and there were no breathless diatribes about the erosion of free speech.
IIRC, there were a few think pieces if not breathless diatribes.

”The Dixie Chicks have taken a big hit lately for exercising their basic right to express themselves, To me, they’re terrific American artists expressing American values by using their American right to free speech,” Springsteen wrote. ”For them to be banished wholesale from radio stations, and even entire radio networks, for speaking out is un-American. The pressure coming from the government and big business to enforce conformity of thought concerning the war and politics goes against everything that this country is about — namely freedom. Right now, we are supposedly fighting to create free speech in Iraq, at the same time that some are trying to intimidate and punish people for using that same freedom here at home. I don’t know what happens next, but I do want to add my voice to those who think that the Dixie Chicks are getting a raw deal, and an un-American one to boot. I send them my support.”
https://ew.com/article/2003/04/23/bruce-springsteen-defends-dixie-chicks/

"They're not exactly the people your civics teacher would expect to find at the center of a raging debate over free speech in America."
https://www.salon.com/2003/04/28/chicks_sawyer/

Government-sanctioned intolerance has even trickled into our private lives. People brandishing anti-war signs or slogans have been turned away from commuter trains in Seattle and suburban shopping malls in upstate New York. Cafeterias are serving "freedom fries." Country music stations stopped playing Dixie Chicks songs, and the Baseball Hall of Fame cancelled an event featuring "Bull Durham" stars Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, after they spoke out against the war on Iraq.

Compounding the offense is the silence from many lawmakers. There is palpable fear even in the halls of Congress of expressing an unpopular view.

Why should this disturb us? Because democracy is not a quiet business. Its lifeblood is the free and vibrant exchange of ideas.
https://www.aclu.org/other/freedom-under-fire-dissent-post-911-america
 
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The part I quoted. And it's right wing because right wingers are the ones banging on about Zionism in their kooky conspiracy theories.

hth, hand

Clownishness is not surprising from you, but this is. The phrase "The politics of Zionism" is not generally regarded as any kind of conspiracy, let alone a right-wing conspiracy. How you inferred "New World Order" from my comment is just bizarre, and not on speaking terms with reality. There's a simple exercise that even you can perform: Suppose we replace "The politics of Zionism" with "Apologists for Israel..." does the same criticism follow? You're ignoring the content of the post to turn a phrase into an association into a conspiracy. Again, clownish.
 
Cool. :thumbsup: None of that contradicts what I posted.

Except it does. It's interesting that you can admire FIRE, which seems to show that consistently upholding moral principles commands respect from people of most persuasions, but I think you admire them out of ignorance. Who is far closer to FIRE's values, you or d4m10n? It's not even close. If FIRE were here to tell you that you were mistaken about cancel culture, your tune would change. A group funded in part by Koch and Scaife money, originally focused on college campuses, and claiming cancel culture is all too real?

You said you believe they consistently rise above the fray of cancel culture fear-mongering. The article that I posted provides numerous examples of what they regard as cancel culture and why they consider the term as useful. The people in this thread who say the same things are regarded as falling for a moral panic. It gets back to the airiness of the opposition. People in this thread gaslighting about cancel culture are inclined to support the adjunct who lost her job for showing a painting. Cool. But why? What's the moral foundation? What's the intellectual machinery? In other contexts, they rationalize cancellation because it's a free market. People feel harmed. Perpetuating bigotry and violence against traditionally marginalized populations.

I supported the Dixie Chicks when they faced boycotts, but that falls short of the acid test for free speech. I opposed the war and agreed with her political stance. Nobody on the left criticized me for that. I opposed the firing of Brendan Eich at Mozilla and the firing decision not to renew Gina Carano's contract with Disney, and clowns are trying to cast me as a right-winger.
 
I just found a very interesting statement from the US Muslim Affairs Council on the 'Hamline Affair', now Hamlines DEI department has proclaimed that the image at the heart of the affair was 'forbidden' to Muslims and other pronouncements that presupposes a unified Muslim response to the issue.



Turns out otherwise, and to their credit the councils statement also addresses the issue of concept creep, if this image, comissioned by an Islamic ruler, from an Islamic artist in the 14th Century for a history that was intended to be widely disseminated throughout the Islamic world is 'Islamophobic' then what isnt.


It is with great concern that the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) views the firing of an art professor, Erika López Prater, from Hamline University on the grounds of showing a fourteenth-century painting depicting the Prophet Muḥammad. We issue this statement of support for the professor and urge the university to reverse its decision and to take compensatory action to ameliorate the situation.



...


Given the ubiquity of Islamophobic depictions of the Prophet Muḥammad, it hardly makes sense to target an art professor trying to combat narrow understandings of Islam. There is an unmistakable irony in the situation, which should be appreciated. Additionally, misusing the label “Islamophobia” has the negative effect of watering down the term and rendering it less effective in calling out actual acts of bigotry.
(Emphasis theirs)


https://www.mpac.org/statement/statement-of-support-for-art-professor-fired-from-hamline-university/


As to the historical facts I mentioned in the opening to this post, well the Art History Faculty at Hamline has issued their own statement in support of the fired adjunct professor in which they outline the context for the image at the heart of the affair.


The tenure-stream faculty of the Department of Art History at the University of Minnesota writes to address the recent non-renewal of adjunct instructor, Dr. Erika López Prater, from her term appointment at Hamline University in Saint Paul, Minnesota. As has been widely reported, and especially well documented in a New York Times article of January 8, 2023, Dr. López Prater showed a 14th-century manuscript painting depicting the Prophet Mohammad in her art history survey course, prompting student complaint and the subsequent cancellation of Dr. López Prater’s spring semester course. This happened without the due process of formal investigation, without an opportunity for Dr. López Prater to respond to the administration’s ill-informed and unfounded accusations, and without good-faith institutional investment in open dialogue or the restorative practices of communication and relational repair. The blame for the mishandling falls entirely to Hamline’s administration.


https://cla.umn.edu/art-history/new...ty-statement-recent-events-hamline-university


As to what Hamlines President has been saying, well The Foundation for Individual Rights & Expression has captured their most recent statement for posterity and have added their own commentary to it.


Ignoring the first law of holes, Hamline University President Fayneese S. Miller issued a new statement defending the university’s nonrenewal of art history adjunct lecturer Erika López Prater because of her in-class display of artwork depicting the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

You can, and should, read President Miller’s internally inconsistent statement below.

Miller opens by asserting that López Prater was not “let go,” “dismissed,” or “fired,” and had not “lost her job,” because a lower-level “unit” made a “decision not to offer her another class” — a decision, Miller says, which “in no way reflects on [López Prater’s] ability to adequately teach the class.” Having explained that the lecturer was not terminated, Miller explains that they were right to let her go, as Hamline University’s steadfast commitment to academic freedom is subordinate to the “traditions, beliefs, and views of students,” the “dictates of society,” and unidentified “laws.”


https://www.thefire.org/news/hamlin...nding-instructors-nonrenewal-showing-muhammad
 
You said you believe they consistently rise above the fray of cancel culture fear-mongering. The article that I posted provides numerous examples of what they regard as cancel culture and why they consider the term as useful. The people in this thread who say the same things are regarded as falling for a moral panic. It gets back to the airiness of the opposition. People in this thread gaslighting about cancel culture are inclined to support the adjunct who lost her job for showing a painting. Cool. But why? What's the moral foundation? What's the intellectual machinery? In other contexts, they rationalize cancellation because it's a free market. People feel harmed. Perpetuating bigotry and violence against traditionally marginalized populations.

I supported the Dixie Chicks when they faced boycotts, but that falls short of the acid test for free speech. I opposed the war and agreed with her political stance. Nobody on the left criticized me for that. I opposed the firing of Brendan Eich at Mozilla and the firing decision not to renew Gina Carano's contract with Disney, and clowns are trying to cast me as a right-winger.

*sigh*

This isn't a difficult circle to square. The people arguing against 'cancel culture' being a distinct thing or a cohesive problem to be addressed as a set aren't the ones using cancellation in and of itself as the framework to determine if the actions described as cancellation are justified or not. This is akin to the way atheists generally don't use the framework of Christian sin to determine if the actions are justified or not. That doesn't change by any given atheist agreeing that 'thou shalt not kill' nor disagreeing that 'that shalt honor no god but me'.

Where to draw the line between justified actions and unjustified relies on the merits of the case. This happens to be true for the overwhelming majority proponents and opponents of 'cancel culture' being a thing or a distinct phenomenon. The people most vocal about the threats of cancel culture just don't see the cancellations they agree with counting. The people who don't think it's a thing don't think any count and those who think it's a thing but not the same kind of problem as the first group are more mixed.

So the moral foundation just isn't including 'cancel culture' as factor for or against a 'cancellation'. The moral foundation used would likely depend entirely on the factors pertinent to the case.

But hey, you can rest assured that the History and Sociology professors won't blame the anti-cancel culture alliance when they get cancelled for teaching that racism is in fact correct or that women being subservient to men is beneficial or any number of utterly unsupported, outright disproven ideas. After all, free speech and anti-cancellation as the moral foundations wouldn't allow you to use your free speech to advocate for their removal from teaching.
 
Except it does. It's interesting that you can admire FIRE, which seems to show that consistently upholding moral principles commands respect from people of most persuasions, but I think you admire them out of ignorance. Who is far closer to FIRE's values, you or d4m10n? It's not even close. If FIRE were here to tell you that you were mistaken about cancel culture, your tune would change. A group funded in part by Koch and Scaife money, originally focused on college campuses, and claiming cancel culture is all too real?

You said you believe they consistently rise above the fray of cancel culture fear-mongering. The article that I posted provides numerous examples of what they regard as cancel culture and why they consider the term as useful. The people in this thread who say the same things are regarded as falling for a moral panic. It gets back to the airiness of the opposition. People in this thread gaslighting about cancel culture are inclined to support the adjunct who lost her job for showing a painting. Cool. But why? What's the moral foundation? What's the intellectual machinery? In other contexts, they rationalize cancellation because it's a free market. People feel harmed. Perpetuating bigotry and violence against traditionally marginalized populations.

I supported the Dixie Chicks when they faced boycotts, but that falls short of the acid test for free speech. I opposed the war and agreed with her political stance. Nobody on the left criticized me for that. I opposed the firing of Brendan Eich at Mozilla and the firing decision not to renew Gina Carano's contract with Disney, and clowns are trying to cast me as a right-winger.

Carano refused to take the necessary public health measures to protect her co-workers in a pandemic. She was as justly fired as somebody who refuses to drive a forklift carefully in a warehouse. On Eich, his homophobic views were causing the company financial difficulties, he realised that and resigned.
 
OMG, all this hand-wringing, agonizing and pearl-clutching over a 600 year old picture... the world really has become a seriously ******-up place hasn't it?

There is a very simple solution to all this

- If you find a TV program offends you then don't watch it (or else change the channel)

- If you find a song offensive to you then don't listen to it

- If you find a book offends you then don't read it.

- If you are offended by the sight of scantily clad or naked women, then don't look at them.

and

- If a picture of the Prophet Muhammad offends you then don't look at it.

Follow these simple guidelines and you will never find yourself being offended, and you won't step on other people's free speech rights.

It really is that simple!
 
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- If a picture of the Prophet Muhammad offends you then don't look at it.

Follow these simple guidelines and you will never find yourself being offended, and you won't step on other people's free speech rights.

It really is that simple!


Indeed, but the big question is why the student who made the complaint looked at the image in the first place, afterall the syllabus mentioned it would be shown, the lesson plan mentioned it would be shown and the teacher spent two minutes giving the picture context before it was shown, and yet the student looked. In the NYT article it's specifically noted that she was asked about this but refused to answer.


As a side note on journalism, 'The Oracle' the Hamline Student Newspaper published an editorial piece in which they laid out their ideas on what the function of news services and journalism is.


The Oracle is Hamline’s independent, student-run newspaper. One of our core tenets, to minimize harm, exists for us to hold ourselves accountable for the way our news affects the lives of individual students, and the Hamline community and student body as a whole.


...


We have learned and experienced from our first day at Hamline, a liberal arts institution, the importance of seeing things from a nuanced perspective. However, trauma and lived experiences are not open for debate.


(Emphasis mine)



https://hamlineoracle.com/10776/opinion/staff-ed-journalism-minimizing-harm-and-trauma/


They also state that they are not experts in either journalism or trauma, however they seem quite happy to pronounce on both.
 

This is probably the most articulate part of what is, yet again, a tribute to BS. However, I am happy to use this as an opportunity to restate old ideas.

This isn't a difficult circle to square. The people arguing against 'cancel culture' being a distinct thing or a cohesive problem to be addressed as a set aren't the ones using cancellation in and of itself as the framework to determine if the actions described as cancellation are justified or not.

The charge is that there is no principled framework. Instead of trying to muddy matters with vague references to these people and those people, we have individuals in this thread who supported specific firings. In the case of your circle-jerk buddy, claimed FIRE does not "fear monger," but Lukianoff and co-author raise the same cases that are discussed endlessly in this thread and pooh-poohed as usual background noise. The characterizations of d4am10n vs. FIRE are discrepant.

Where to draw the line between justified actions and unjustified relies on the merits of the case. This happens to be true for the overwhelming majority proponents and opponents of 'cancel culture' being a thing or a distinct phenomenon. The people most vocal about the threats of cancel culture just don't see the cancellations they agree with counting. The people who don't think it's a thing don't think any count and those who think it's a thing but not the same kind of problem as the first group are more mixed.

So the moral foundation just isn't including 'cancel culture' as factor for or against a 'cancellation'. The moral foundation used would likely depend entirely on the factors pertinent to the case.

Everybody decides matters on the "merits" of a case the way they support "reasonable" gun laws, or killing scores of people when "necessary." In other words, meaningless statements. We articulate a principle first -- what is or is not justified -- and then see if the case meets those criteria.

I'll illustrate by giving you an example. Not long ago, there was a magazine article titled something to the effect, "Cancelled at 17." A young man was ostracized by peers because he showed a nude photo of his girlfriend to several other boys at a party. Johnny supported this cancellation, eventually saying that what the young man did was a crime! Well, that can serve as a kind of moral foundation, but if it's not consistently applied, then it's not a moral foundation at all. Let's take it for granted that the level of ostracization reasonably follows from the crime. Students who befriended the boy were also ostracized. Whether or not people ought to be cancelled for non-criminal acts, no reason was given.

When anyone digs far enough, they don't just find tortoise shells. It's worse. These arguments eventually go back to notions of self-justifying power, often represented by the free market. People have 1) freedom of association and 2) freedom of speech. If I don't like an actor or singer or laborer, then I can choose not support financially support that person. I can also tell other consumers not to support that person. These are my basic freedoms. Right-wingers were happy with this state of affairs back their ideas had more cultural resonance, but it's always been amoral under the surface.

But hey, you can rest assured that the History and Sociology professors won't blame the anti-cancel culture alliance when they get cancelled for teaching that racism is in fact correct or that women being subservient to men is beneficial or any number of utterly unsupported, outright disproven ideas. After all, free speech and anti-cancellation as the moral foundations wouldn't allow you to use your free speech to advocate for their removal from teaching.

I'll say again, you have no idea how to argue. What a mess.
 
Carano refused to take the necessary public health measures to protect her co-workers in a pandemic. She was as justly fired as somebody who refuses to drive a forklift carefully in a warehouse.

This is incorrect. She was fired for tweeting. I suggest reading the contemporaneous exchanges up-thread.

On Eich, his homophobic views were causing the company financial difficulties, he realised that and resigned.

This goes back to self-justifying power in the form of market mechanisms. As with your purported explanation for Carano, I don't think it's correct, but that one's further back. I recall workers making noises about benefits and feeling fearful. Eich was assailed for opposing same-sex marriage at the same time as Democrats like Barack Obama (though he went further in supporting prop. 8).
 
This is probably the most articulate part of what is, yet again, a tribute to BS. However, I am happy to use this as an opportunity to restate old ideas.

It is the most articulate part because you will never incorporate the information presented into your thinking beyond shallow rejoinder. Being good at BSing the paper without having done the reading only gets you so far.


The charge is that there is no principled framework. Instead of trying to muddy matters with vague references to these people and those people, we have individuals in this thread who supported specific firings.

The fact that there wasn't even a need to get specific to refute part of your reasoning isn't 'muddying the waters'.

In the case of your circle-jerk buddy, claimed FIRE does not "fear monger," but Lukianoff and co-author raise the same cases that are discussed endlessly in this thread and pooh-poohed as usual background noise. The characterizations of d4am10n vs. FIRE are discrepant.


The part I cut out because it wasn't my place to address it? Yeah, and? You want me to answer for someone else about what they think about FIRE? No, just like I'll not demand you answer for your compatriot, Warp12.


Everybody decides matters on the "merits" of a case the way they support "reasonable" gun laws, or killing scores of people when "necessary." In other words, meaningless statements. We articulate a principle first -- what is or is not justified -- and then see if the case meets those criteria.

Naw, again you think you get to dictate the shape of the discussion to conform to one most amenable to you. There is zero reason to articulate one's own principle to find holes in the soundness of someone else's. That said, the reason you failed to even attempt to deal with the analogies and general examples in my post was that it shows some of the holes in the 'cancellation is real, wrong, and a major problem'.

And if you had bothered to read and understand the thread, you'd see that the very post you entered back into the discussion on was showing how the many of the proponents of cancel culture being a major issue fail to apply their principles evenly. There is no contradiction to being against cancel culture being a major problem and also against some actions that fit the criteria of cancellation. This is the same as not believing in Christian sin but agreeing that murder is bad.

I'll illustrate by giving you an example. Not long ago, there was a magazine article titled something to the effect, "Cancelled at 17." A young man was ostracized by peers because he showed a nude photo of his girlfriend to several other boys at a party. Johnny supported this cancellation, eventually saying that what the young man did was a crime! Well, that can serve as a kind of moral foundation, but if it's not consistently applied, then it's not a moral foundation at all. Let's take it for granted that the level of ostracization reasonably follows from the crime. Students who befriended the boy were also ostracized. Whether or not people ought to be cancelled for non-criminal acts, no reason was given.

When anyone digs far enough, they don't just find tortoise shells. It's worse. These arguments eventually go back to notions of self-justifying power, often represented by the free market. People have 1) freedom of association and 2) freedom of speech. If I don't like an actor or singer or laborer, then I can choose not support financially support that person. I can also tell other consumers not to support that person. These are my basic freedoms. Right-wingers were happy with this state of affairs back their ideas had more cultural resonance, but it's always been amoral under the surface.

Congratulations on reaching the philosophical level of like page 4 of the first thread. What system of morality do you propose that work better than the freedom of association and freedom of speech being broadly acceptable?

I'll say again, you have no idea how to argue. What a mess.

It's kind of scary how reliable this specific insulting handwave of yours is at identifying the best attacks on your argument.

It's a good illustration that you're going to keep dancing around with pseudo-intellectual pronouncements. If the actions that meet the criteria for 'cancel culture' are indeed wrong in as broad a way as the critics of 'cancel culture' have presented (and you indicate), then trying to get a professional fired for unprofessional conduct directly related to their field (like arguing racial superiority without new evidence or any other disproven and actively harmful idea) would be wrong. This is distinct from those who say the actions described as cancellation are either acceptable or unacceptable depending on the facts of the case. They would say a History professor teaching that the Nazis were actually socialists and leftists should be corrected and if that information is refused, fired.

Of course there are more nuanced stances, but those are all either gaslighting or playing shell games apparently.
 

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