Cont: The Biden Presidency (3)

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mgidm86 said:
Who needs hindsight? Hmm let's see....don't forget to return classified docume...oh I'm sorry, it's Top Secret documents now, when your term is over.

Seems like a pretty important thing to remember, yes? What could be more important than this? I have to come up with a solution for handling Top Secret documents? School libraries do a better job. You keep a list of documents you have borrowed, then you check that list later. Seriously, that's difficult?
I think Biden handled it fine after the fact. Then again, they were found before the midterm election back in November but nobody informed the public until now.

Huh. More ammo for the Right. Yes, it matters.

Now the Republicans are saying, "Look how easy it is for a President to make a mistake with Classified material...." while we are trying to nail Trump for doing exactly that, and yes much more, but they both mishandled classified material, whether it was they themselves or someone who worked for them.

Trump is rightly criticized for his handling of these types of documents, meaning having them in an unsecured location. I am holding Biden to the same standard.




Good answer! No, we wouldn't jump all over Trump for that, not at all.
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I doubt the VP or Pres. do that kind of record keeping themselves. Documents are brought to them, they read them, and then are likely handed back to designated staff to return to proper place.
 
mgidm86 said:
That has nothing to do with it. Remember these documents were discovered two months ago November 2nd. We are just being told now.

My point is that these are points (everything I've said) that Republicans are going to make.

"Biden had them in multiple locations!"
"Biden says "in a closet maybe""
"Biden is a hypocrite now"
"It wasn't Trumps fault, it's the system"
"All President do it"
"They hid it until after the midterms"

If people don't think that matters then fine. It matters to me. This makes it more difficult to nail Trump, mainly politically. That is all.
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Of course they're going to...and are...going to play this up as being equivalent to what Trump did. That's not in question. And some people are going to believe it because they look and hear no farther than what they want to see and hear.

I do agree that the Dems need to get out in front of this and make clear statements that it isn't equivalent and why.
 
mgidm86 said:
Do we care who left the Top Secret documents in Trump's office or do we just want to see Trump fry for it regardless because he was the boss?
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To poke at this - Personally, the former. Absolutely the former, with the why they were left there mattering. Nuance and principle matter in my book.

It's frustrating that Trump has yet to actually face Justice for his crimes, but I want him to go down for his crimes, not some convenient pretext. Not that there's any real doubt that Trump was intentionally violating the law here in a dramatic way, of course, but the principle stands across the board for me.
 
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Aridas said:
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It's frustrating that Trump has yet to actually face Justice for his crimes, but I want him to go down for his crimes, not some convenient pretext. Not that there's any real doubt that Trump was intentionally violating the law here in a dramatic way, of course, but the principle stands across the board for me.
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Are you claiming his squirreling away all those documents on Macron and certain countries' nuclear capabilities will provide the DoJ no more than a "convenient pretext" to charge Trump? Or am I misunderstanding your post?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Are you claiming his squirreling away all those documents on Macron and certain countries' nuclear capabilities will provide the DoJ no more than a "convenient pretext" to charge Trump? Or am I misunderstanding your post?
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Misunderstanding. As specifically noted in what you quoted, there's not really any room for doubt when it comes to Trump's actions.

To boil the quoted question down into a more standard philosophical one, though, the quoted question is an ends and means question. mgidm86 is indicating that he just really cares about the ends, by the look of it. I'm not going to directly knock that, but it's well worth remembering that the means will shape the actual end, so means really should be counted as important even for those who just care about the ends. Hence, the part where I certainly do care about the means and not just the ends.
 
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perfect timing for the Dems for this to come to light and be forgotten again.
It's not like Trumpers would ever, ever admit that something their Dear Leader did was wrong, or that Biden could ever, ever be right in doing anything.
So no loss whatsoever.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Too soon. You have at least a year or more to worry about that. This story will be old news by then.
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This impeachment trial based on this will probably go on that long and be milked for all that it's worth. The idea this is going away is fanciful. He might have been fine with the first batch. The second makes him look so much worse and defending him now takes so much more.

An ironclad rule of politics that explaining = losing. The only way the GOP lets up on this if they find something worse. It's "but her e-mails ^ 1000.


He's expendable and in the best of times was a bad election risk in 2024. It's an opportunity to hand off the baton. That Biden is maybe unfairly sacrificed for this is of no account.
 
mgidm86 said:
That has nothing to do with it.

These documents were discovered two months ago November 2nd. We are just being told now.

My point is that these are points (everything I've said) that Republicans are going to make.

"Biden had them in multiple locations!"
"Biden says "in a closet maybe""
"Biden is a hypocrite now"
"It wasn't Trumps fault, it's the system"
"All President do it"
"They hid all of this until after the midterms"

If people don't think that matters then fine. It matters to me. This makes it more difficult to nail Trump, mainly politically. That is all.
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How specifically is it going to make it more difficult to nail Trump? Please cite relevant legal statutes in support of your assertion.
 
Stacyhs said:
I doubt the VP or Pres. do that kind of record keeping themselves. Documents are brought to them, they read them, and then are likely handed back to designated staff to return to proper place.
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Exactly this. And the Vice President certainly isn’t going to some random satellite office at the end of his term to pack everything up himself. This would have all been handled by his aides.
 
johnny karate said:
Exactly this. And the Vice President certainly isn’t going to some random satellite office at the end of his term to pack everything up himself. This would have all been handled by his aides.
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By choosing to rely on aides to do this work, he bears some responsibility for the consequences of his choices.
 
Not to engage in a false equivalency, but this by itself doesn’t reflect well on Biden and certainly gives the Republicans fodder:

From the Wall Street Journal:

President Biden’s aides searched his residences in Wilmington and Rehoboth Beach, Del. and found an additional batch of a small number of classified records, Richard Sauber, Mr. Biden’s lawyer said in a statement Thursday.
“All but one of these documents were found in storage space in the President’s Wilmington residence garage. One document consisting of one page was discovered among stored materials in an adjacent room. No documents were found in the Rehoboth Beach residence,” the statement said.
 
BobTheCoward said:
By choosing to rely on aides to do this work, he bears some responsibility for the consequences of his choices.
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Cool. :thumbsup: Please explain in detail what those specific consequences are, and cite all relevant legal statutes that support your assertions.
 
johnny karate said:
Cool. :thumbsup: Please explain in detail what those specific consequences are, and cite all relevant legal statutes that support your assertions.
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The consequences are misplaced records.

I don't give an F about legal statutes. I don't judge people by some legal standard I didn't write.
 
Given his age he can justifiably claim to have no recall of the documents, and to have just picked them up and put them down because he forgot why he had them with him.

Why the secret service didn't pick up the secrets lying around is unclear, part of service is clearing, so clearing away the secrets is pretty much the definition of the job!
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Not to engage in a false equivalency, but this by itself doesn’t reflect well on Biden and certainly gives the Republicans fodder:

From the Wall Street Journal:

President Biden’s aides searched his residences in Wilmington and Rehoboth Beach, Del. and found an additional batch of a small number of classified records, Richard Sauber, Mr. Biden’s lawyer said in a statement Thursday.
“All but one of these documents were found in storage space in the President’s Wilmington residence garage. One document consisting of one page was discovered among stored materials in an adjacent room. No documents were found in the Rehoboth Beach residence,” the statement said.
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Oh no, fodder for Republicans! The usually restrained and reasonable GOP finally has something to criticize Biden and the Democrats for after years of not at all being unhinged lunatics who weaponize the most innocuous things!
 
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