Drag Shows!!

[Thermal]

This is my shocked face that you'd side with a BlazeTV personality's report on what went on at a show she attended put on by a demographic you've repeatedly tried to demonize in this thread.

You really shouldn't wear your bad faith argumentation on your sleeve.

I'm not demonizing anyone. That's a lie. You are posting lies. You are a liar. Please, man, just for one thread: Stop lying.

Drag is fine. I've seen a few shows in AC, as part of other performances. It's fine, but I think it is usually adult entertainment. What I am questioning here is whether it is beneficial to kids in a radicaly different context, or if they would be getting the intended message at all.

 

[Upchurch]

if they would be getting the intended message at all.

Do you understand what the intended message is and, if so, what do you think it is?

 

[Robin]

There were multiple ads for this particular show. On the performers ad, it said adults only in a lower corner. Where you would actually buy tickets, it specified "This show is for all ages". So I can see where the confusion got in there. The host who you buy tickets from was the one who didn't proofread well.

https://twitter.com/joe_messina/status/1582451144722624513?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1582451144722624513%7Ctwgr%5Efd89bf5be9fddea5a4f254688eed1f5f75485ff3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Foriginal.newsbreak.com%2F%40ash-jurberg-560946%2F2790837752511-footage-of-controversial-drag-show-in-plano-goes-viral

It seems to say that it is for all ages but discretion is advised due to the suggestive material - going on to say "We have potty mouths"

And parents bringing in kids were warned as they entered that it might not be suitable.

So the problem, if any, is that they might have made the warnings more prominent at the point of sale.

Thay some people call that "grooming" is ridiculous. Don't forget that mainstream Americans regularly take their children to watch the erotic dancers who perform at the half time at football matches (let's face it, the only difference between a pole dancer and a cheerleader these days is the pole) so you would have to call that grooming.

Or a generation of British and Australian kids brought up on Mrs Slocombe talking about her "pussy' or Widow Twankey suggestively handling apples and bananas and saying "it's nice to have something to suck'. Carry On films, Benny Hill, Up Pompeii and so on. These would all have to be called grooming too.

Apart from anything it gives the real groomers clear air because it takes the attention off them.

 

[Thermal]

Do you understand what the intended message is and, if so, what do you think it is?

Maybe, and the one that is intended.

If that answer is unsatisfactory, perhaps you could rephrase your questions into something meaningful. We are currently talking about at least three different groups: the Eden performers, who put on a raunchy adult show that has had young children in attendance, the Drag Queen Story Hour that reads stories to very young children, and the DSH (with "Queen" intentionally removed from their branding) that promotes positive queer role models by way of story hours and other paid engagements. The latter two overlap quite a bit, but have differences.

Please take a moment to compose a coherent question and we'll try it again.

 

[Thermal]

It seems to say that it is for all ages but discretion is advised due to the suggestive material - going on to say "We have potty mouths"

And parents bringing in kids were warned as they entered that it might not be suitable.

So the problem, if any, is that they might have made the warnings more prominent at the point of sale.

Thay some people call that "grooming" is ridiculous. Don't forget that mainstream Americans regularly take their children to watch the erotic dancers who perform at the half time at football matches (let's face it, the only difference between a pole dancer and a cheerleader these days is the pole) so you would have to call that grooming.

Or a generation of British and Australian kids brought up on Mrs Slocombe talking about her "pussy' or Widow Twankey suggestively handling apples and bananas and saying "it's nice to have something to suck'. Carry On films, Benny Hill, Up Pompeii and so on. These would all have to be called grooming too.

Apart from anything it gives the real groomers clear air because it takes the attention off them.

Well...ok, agreed. I don't think I've said anything about grooming, though, and I don't think the drag performers in question are grooming anyone for anything.

Erotic pole dancing in the States, I can assure you, is done exponentially more suggestively and wearing far less than even the most provocative cheerleaders, although I get your point that cheerleaders are not exactly modest.

And agreed, the focus should remain on real predatory threats to children, not imagined ones.

 

[catsmate]

Probably something along the lines of refuting claims that 'drag is "freaking obscure"', 'drag story hour is just adults trying to do adult sexy kink things in front of kindergartners', 'not mocking drag performers will absolutely result in kids deciding they're clowns,' etc.

That's one thing. The title of this thread is "Drag Shows!!" so a convention devoted to drag would seem to be eminently on-topic.
And if Thermal had bothered to real the report he'd have seen that Drag Queens (and Kings) have a fanbase, including some relatively young. Imagine, people not disgusted or weirded out....

 

[Thermal]

That's one thing. The title of this thread is "Drag Shows!!" so a convention devoted to drag would seem to be eminently on-topic.

Yet again, the forum is USA Politics, and the actual opening post is about a Texan website for reporting shows. Nothing whatsoever to do with DragCon on another continent, any more than geisha tea parties in Japan

And if Thermal had bothered to real the report he'd have seen that Drag Queens (and Kings) have a fanbase, including some relatively young. Imagine, people not disgusted or weirded out....

Of course they do. RuPauls Drag Race has been running for ages. Pretty freaking obvious that there is a strong fan base. I mean, it's entertainment. Duh.

And feel free to shove the "disgusted" implication. I've been entertained by it. It's not "disgusting" by nature. But should you take a moment to read the actual posts here instead of projecting your imaginary jazz, it's not what we are talking about. You need to borrow some notes to suss it out?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Does the Muppets and specifically miss piggy count as a drag show and do we need to protect the children from muppets?

 

[wareyin]

You really shouldn't wear your bad faith argumentation on your sleeve.

I'm not demonizing anyone. That's a lie. You are posting lies. You are a liar. Please, man, just for one thread: Stop lying.

Drag is fine. I've seen a few shows in AC, as part of other performances. It's fine, but I think it is usually adult entertainment. What I am questioning here is whether it is beneficial to kids in a radicaly different context, or if they would be getting the intended message at all.

Oh please, you've repeatedly claimed that drag story hours are sexual fetish attempts to do kinky adult stuff in front of 3 year olds. You've said that the only take away kids will/should get from seeing drag story hour is that people in drag are clowns.

That's demonizing drag performers, man. Unless you're gonna claim that you don't mean anything bad by saying they're just perverts who get off on doing sex type things in front of young children. Which...knowing you that's probably going to be your next pivot. "It was just hyperbole, banter, locker room talk. I didn't mean anything bad by calling you a clown and a pervert who gets off on performing sex acts in front of kids!"

 

[Upchurch]

Maybe, and the one that is intended.

If that answer is unsatisfactory, perhaps you could rephrase your questions into something meaningful. We are currently talking about at least three different groups: the Eden performers, who put on a raunchy adult show that has had young children in attendance, the Drag Queen Story Hour that reads stories to very young children, and the DSH (with "Queen" intentionally removed from their branding) that promotes positive queer role models by way of story hours and other paid engagements. The latter two overlap quite a bit, but have differences.

Please take a moment to compose a coherent question and we'll try it again.

As you were referring to kids "in a radically different context", I think it's safe to assume I was talking about the latter two. What message do you think they are trying to communicate

 

[Thermal]

Oh please, you've repeatedly claimed that drag story hours are sexual fetish attempts to do kinky adult stuff in front of 3 year olds. You've said that the only take away kids will/should get from seeing drag story hour is that people in drag are clowns.

That's demonizing drag performers, man. Unless you're gonna claim that you don't mean anything bad by saying they're just perverts who get off on doing sex type things in front of young children. Which...knowing you that's probably going to be your next pivot. "It was just hyperbole, banter, locker room talk. I didn't mean anything bad by calling you a clown and a pervert who gets off on performing sex acts in front of kids!"

Why do you get off on changing a few words to change the content and meaning of my posts? For instance, I argued at length that fetishes are not necessarily sexual, and that I don't know what a three year olds takeaway would be, whether a positive view of atypical gender representation or entertaining clowns. It's a fair question.

Warp is gone. I don't argue along his lines, kiddies. I'm not taking his place. Grow up and get over your loss.

 

[Thermal]

As you were referring to kids "in a radically different context", I think it's safe to assume I was talking about the latter two.

Pretty obviously not, as the Eden show was Gonzales' star attraction. Presenting a brunch drag show to children is a radically different context than a late night club performance.

What message do you think they are trying to communicate

Different ones, obviously, and the same ones I have posted repeatedly. Do I seriously have to read them back to you yet again? It's been a lot of pages for you to jump up and say you haven't been paying attention and could we start over?

 

[wareyin]

Why do you get off on changing a few words to change the content and meaning of my posts? For instance, I argued at length that fetishes are not necessarily sexual,

Go back and read the responses to your argument. Including the dictionary definitions. Your argument is bs.

and that I don't know what a three year olds takeaway would be, whether a positive view of atypical gender representation or entertaining clowns. It's a fair question.

Speaking of "changing a few words to change the content and meaning", when you were saying kids would take people in drag as clowns, you certainly were not saying you didn't know how they'd take it. Hell, you crowed about raising 3 kids and having a 25 years experienced child psychiatrist spouse as evidence that you do know how they'd take it. Remember?

Warp is gone. I don't argue along his lines, kiddies. I'm not taking his place. Grow up and get over your loss.

Nah, Warp was a troll who didn't believe what he said. You're clearly not a troll who doesn't believe what you say, you just post inflammatory stuff to get a response then claim you didn't mean the word the way everyone else uses it...

 

[Upchurch]

Different ones, obviously, and the same ones I have posted repeatedly. Do I seriously have to read them back to you yet again? It's been a lot of pages for you to jump up and say you haven't been paying attention and could we start over?

Okay, you don't know. That's fine.

The only message they are trying to convey is familiarity, to make it not be scary. That is easily something a 3ish year old can understand or at least an experience they can build upon.

Bigotry is learned. This is an attempt to subvert that bigotry and, hopefully, the bullying and self-harm that can come from bigotry.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, you don't know. That's fine.

The only message they are trying to convey is familiarity, to make it not be scary. That is easily something a 3ish year old can understand or at least an experience they can build upon.

Bigotry is learned. This is an attempt to subvert that bigotry and, hopefully, the bullying and self-harm that can come from bigotry.

Youre riding pretty heavy on this. The DSH group claims, as I've pointed out multiple times, that they are promoting positive queer role models. At a price, of course. So the message might be taken as "these are not familiar people. They are performers here to flamboyantly service your entertainment needs".

I totally get that they could be seen in a positive light. My question is "are they tho? Is it working?" I don't think reality always works in the ways our adult narratives assume. The road to Hell and it's paving and all that.

 

[plague311]

Yet again, the forum is USA Politics, and the actual opening post is about a Texan website for reporting shows. Nothing whatsoever to do with DragCon on another continent, any more than geisha tea parties in Japan

The tie-in to US politics that I saw, at least in your article and the way I've viewed it, is that Drag Shows\Story Hours are a hot button political issue. The article you posted references how it's the new Right-Wing rage topic and even coupled it with CRT. Which isn't far from the truth if you ask me. The fact the woman that started it is, as you pointed out, a BlazeTV talking head kind of lends credence to that claim as well.

 

[Upchurch]

I totally get that they could be seen in a positive light. My question is "are they tho? Is it working?" I don't think reality always works in the ways our adult narratives assume. The road to Hell and it's paving and all that.

Yes, it would be lovely if we had the money, time, and resources to research every question under the sun. But does it matter? If no one is being hurt and maybe some good comes from it, what is the harm in trying? Worse case scenario, some kids get read a story.

 

[Robin]

Youre riding pretty heavy on this. The DSH group claims, as I've pointed out multiple times, that they are promoting positive queer role models. At a price, of course. So the message might be taken as "these are not familiar people. They are performers here to flamboyantly service your entertainment needs".

I totally get that they could be seen in a positive light. My question is "are they tho? Is it working?" I don't think reality always works in the ways our adult narratives assume. The road to Hell and it's paving and all that.

I don't know if it is working in the way they intend.

But then again you could say that about any number of initiatives aimed at kids. Is Uni going to improve access to quality education? Will Murrilicious encourage kids to eat healthier? The list is endless.

Why the concern about this particular initiative?

 

[Thermal]

Yes, it would be lovely if we had the money, time, and resources to research every question under the sun.

We are not talking about anything remotely like that.

But does it matter?

Yes. What you do and why you do it and whether works as intended are rather important thingys. To some of us.

If no one is being hurt and maybe some good comes from it, what is the harm in trying? Worse case scenario, some kids get read a story.

No. Worst case scenario is you are teaching children to look at people with atypical gender presentation as clowns. This is rather the opposite of the stated intent, and a full-tilt backfire. Speaking of backfires, several videos have been presented of full-tilt backfires already. Mr "My Pussy Good Enough To Eat" and the others. And what is our demonstrable benefit? "What does it matter?", you say? Come on, man.

 

[Thermal]

I don't know if it is working in the way they intend.

Ya I get that.

But then again you could say that about any number of initiatives aimed at kids. Is Uni going to improve access to quality education? Will Murrilicious encourage kids to eat healthier? The list is endless.

And we have endless resources to evaluate this one already. An easy example: do 3yr olds appreciate the difference between men and women, for a start? I've seen toddlers who think a man with long hair must be a woman. Toddlers are adorable little knuckleheads, but a lot sails right over their heads. Like a man in convincing drag. They'd likely think it was a woman, making the whole drag angle kind of pointless.

Why the concern about this particular initiative?

For the appallingly obvious reason: it is the thread topic presented. You know, the actual thing for discussion here? If we were talking about women singing songs for children in French maid outfits, I'd have the same argument: "Y U do dis?"